Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

When the rule 18.3 is off ?

Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
.
Hi friends !!
At position N°3  is the rule 18.3  off ??

Cheers !!!!


H.JPG 3.95 MB
Created: 23-Apr-23 11:18

Comments

P
Uros Zvan
Nationality: Slovenia
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Race Officer
3
Read last sentence of 18.1
Created: 23-Apr-23 11:42
Tyler Phillips
Nationality: United States
3
18.3 is on at position 3 since Red tacked at position 2 which is in the zone. However, 18.3 does not impact the incident at position 4. It is a simple rule 12 violation, Yellow hit Red from astern. Yellow is tossed in a protest.
Had Yellow luffed up beyond close hauled at position 4 instead of ramming Red, then Red would have broken 18.3. Sine Yellow chose contact instead of luffing, Red never actually broke a rule.
Created: 23-Apr-23 12:15
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
Ok......my question is:
When rule 18.3 is over ?

I think that at position N°3, rule 18.3 is over


Thanks !!!
Created: 23-Apr-23 12:24
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
Mr. Uros Zvan, are you talking about this ?

18.1
Rule 18 no longer applies between boats when mark-room has been given. 
Created: 23-Apr-23 12:27
Dominique Géniaux
Nationality: France
Certifications:
  • Technical Delegate
  • Fleet Measurer
  • National Measurer
  • Regional Race Officer
  • Regional Judge
0
No overlap in position 3, so 18 not apply and rule 12 apply
Created: 23-Apr-23 12:43
Warren Nethercote
Nationality: Canada
1
Interesting ...

I agree that S broke 12 (and 14) but nowhere does 18.3 suggest that it turns off before the boats reach, round or pass the mark.  Once P passes head to wind within the zone, 18.3 continues to lurk like the sword of Damocles.  Had S tried to squeeze inside P at position 4, and hit the mark (or P) P would have broken 18.3.  Had S luffed above close-hauled to avoid P at position 4, P would have broken 18.3.  18.3 describes a special case of room, in a manner of speaking,  and I don't think P satisfied the requirements of 18.3.  But that failure doesn't forgive S' failure to keep clear, which Rule 18.3 actually expects ("to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact").

If P did break 18.3 is S exonerated for her breach of 12 and 14?  Perhaps under 43.1(b), but I am not convinced.  Had she tried to go inside at 4, 'yes', but having plowed straight into P's transom I think not.
Created: 23-Apr-23 13:01
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
2
Rule 18.1:

Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply ...

None of the exceptions (a) to (d) operate to switch off rule 18.

Rule 18 last sentence does not operate to switch off rule 18 because, under rule 18.3, neither boat has ever been entitled to mark-room, so there is no mark-room to be 'given'.

So rule 18.3 continues to apply while ever at least one of the boats is in the zone.

The question then becomes 'Did Red break rule 18.3?'

I think the answer to that is no.

Rule 18.3 provides

If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark,she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her. When this rule applies between boats, rule 18.2 does not apply between them.

Green never sails about close hauled or becomes overlapped inside Red, so the rule is never broken.

Green could readily have kept clear of Red, clear ahead, and avoided contact by either sailing above close-hauled hauled or bearing away inside Red, but she did neither.

Rule 18.3 requires a boat to sail above close-hauled.  It does not talk about whether a boat needs to sail above close hauled.

Gree  breaks rules 12 and 14.  Red breaks no rule.
Created: 23-Apr-23 13:30
Robert Stewart
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Judge
2
Have a look at WS Q&A -2021.010
In this Q&A Red tacks closer to the mark than in the diagram presented.
Also review WS Q&A 2020.14 where it gives an "Interpretation of shall not cause in rule 18.3"


Created: 23-Apr-23 14:21
Warren Nethercote
Nationality: Canada
1
Thanks Robert.  The Q&A was helpful, if not the exact situation.  I guess I'm with John Allan.  18.3 is still on, but S didn't take one of the two options available to her and breaks 12 and 14.  P gets a freebee.
Created: 23-Apr-23 15:44
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
1
We also had an older thread looking a similar question … (note: this discussion occurred during the 2017 quad, before the last sentence of 18.1 was added)

Ang

PS: Unfortunately the diagram is gone, but the situation describes a leeward boat, that had tacked  within the zone of the windward mark, that luffs a windward boat (that remained on stb) between the windward mark and offset mark after their sterns past the windward mark, but while still within the zone of the windward mark.

https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/122-when-does-rrs-18-3s-limitations-cease
Created: 23-Apr-23 16:03
Jim Hoey
Nationality: United States
0
Regardless of right of way, "contact" should always be avoided.  i.e. a starboard tack boat would be out if contact was made with a port tack boat when it could have been avoided.  In this case contact could have been avoided and was not.   The boat which makes contact should be out.
Created: 23-Apr-23 16:23
Simon Zuchowicz
Nationality: Mexico
0
18.3 has not been infringed, therefore 18.2 applies - yellow is at fault.
Created: 23-Apr-23 17:08
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
1
Simon

I disagree.

The conditions for rule 18.3 are met and so rule 18.3 applies, even though it is not broken.

If rule 18.3 applies, rule 18.2 does not.
Created: 23-Apr-23 21:16
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
1
Jim Hoey
Said Created: Today 16:23

Regardless of right of way, "contact" should always be avoided.  i.e. a starboard tack boat would be out if contact was made with a port tack boat when it could have been avoided.  In this case contact could have been avoided and was not.   The boat which makes contact should be out.

This is only true if the boat causes injury.  or damage.

If there is no injury or damage the right of way boat or a boat sailing within the room or mark room to which she is entitled is exonerated for breaking rule 14 in accordance with rule 43.1(c.)
Created: 23-Apr-23 21:24
Johan Bergkvist
Nationality: Australia
1
John Allan wrote "So rule 18.3 continues to apply while ever at least one of the boats is in the zone." I don't think that's correct. If Green had sailed in between the mark and Red then 18.3 would have obliged Red to give Green mark-room, which the last sentence of 18 does turn off as soon as mark-room was given.

That leaves the question of how long Red is prohibited to cause Green to sail above close hauled. I stipulate that there is no mark-room involved, so the last sentence of 18 does not turn it off. Yet it feels odd that this is the only situation in 18 that continues well after both boats have left the mark. Is that really the intent? Or is it an omission and the last sentence of 18 is meant to turn off 18 in pretty much all situations?
Created: 23-Apr-23 21:50
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
1
John A re: “This is only true if the boat causes injury.  or damage.”

.. in response to..

Jim H wrote: “Regardless of right of way, "contact" should always be avoided.”

It might be spitting hairs but I agree with Jim. Contact should always be avoided.

However, a boat can be [is] exonerated for contact under certain conditions (and thus not be penalized for such contact). 

IMO, that’s a difference worth distinction. 

I’ve always believed that a fundamental purpose of the rules is to create a framework such that boats can get around the course without contacting each other (as well as other objects that could possibly result in damage and/or injury).
Created: 23-Apr-23 22:27
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
1
  1. I was responding to Jim's broad assertion that "The boat which makes contact should be out."
  2. Of course contact should be avoided.
  3. But it's a cardinal mistake to deduce some sort of general principle from the rules and then try to apply that principle as if it was a rule.  As judges we should always look at the rules as written.
  4. And if the conditions of rule 43 are met, it's not that 'a boat can be exonerated'.  The boat is exonerated.
  5. OK, in the OP scenario, with a bow to transom shunt it will be very unusual for there to be no damage (except maybe in Optis at low speed), but likewise it will almost always be not reasonably possible for the clear ahead right of way boat to avoid the contact, so she will be in no need of exoneration.    The clear astern boat will almost always be required to keep clear and not sailing within any room or mark room, so not entitled to exoneration.
  6. An exception would be  port tack boat tacking into a close clear ahead position and failing to give room as required by rule 15.  In that case:
  • Arguably she breaks rule 14 because she could have avoided contact by not breaking rule 15 ,
  • She is nevertheless the right of way boat and rule 43.1(c) applies if there is no damage to injury.
  • The other boat, because she has not been given room to keep clear could not reasonably have avoided contact, but otherwise is sailing within the room to which she is entitled, and is exonerated if she does break rule 14, and does not cause injury or damage.  It would be arguable that any injury or damage was caused by the tacking boat breaking rule 15, and not by the clear astern boat. 


Created: 23-Apr-24 01:12
David Hudson
Nationality: South Africa
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • National Race Officer
  • International Judge
1
Catalan asked: “When rule 18.3 is over?”  My answer: “As soon as P has rounded or passed the mark.”  Here’s why:

As P passes head-to-wind 18.3 switches on and immediately:
1. switches off 18.2,
2. suspends a penalty conditionally over the head of boat P, and
3. offers mark-room conditionally to boat S.

The condition that switches on P’s penalty is causing S “to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact”. This could happen as late as when P starts bearing away to round the mark. 

The condition that switches on S’s mark-room is her becoming “overlapped inside” P.  This could happen as late as while P is still in the process of rounding the mark.

At the point where it is no longer possible for S to become overlapped inside P, her conditional mark-room has been “given”, and the last sentence of 18.1 switches off 18.3.

This point is “As soon as P has rounded or passed the mark.”
Created: 23-Apr-24 12:07
David Knecht
Nationality: United States
0
I agree that by 18.3, red must keep clear of yellow until the mark is rounded.  First question: what should yellow have done?  Presumably hail for red to stay clear instead of colliding.   How does red keep clear?  If both are close hauled and yellow is going faster (think mixed PHRF fleet), and red realizes this at position 3, how does red keep clear so as not to foul yellow?  If I were red, I would have sailed past the layline to avoid the problem, but if red did not do that, what should he/she do to avoid yellow once in position 3-4?  The only options I can see are tack, jibe or tell yellow they are going to do penalty turns after rounding.
Created: 23-Apr-25 12:33
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