Mike .. we've had a couple threads on this subject.  I'll see if I can dig them up and post the links (others are invited to do so as well). - Ang

Thanks Angelo.  Much appreciated if ur digging gets results !! 

There are several different, inventive SIs intended to stop boats sailing thro the line downwind. One I like says you must either leave the pin to port or the cttee boat to starboard. Hence avoiding the line being an obstruction. 

So that makes the ends of the S/F line Marks, switching on R18  at either end of the line.  Designating the line as an obstruction switches on R 19.2(from memory) 

Never been very fond of this type of instruction as, depending on the length of the S/F line and the size of the course, it could effect the tactics of boats on the downwind leg.  Much prefer setting the course in front of the Committee vessel with the leeward gate above the start line.  If this is not suitable I would set a short finish line or set the finish line on the other side of the CV.  The usual reason for setting the leeward mark behind the CV is to make the fleet pass through the S/F line at the end of each round - again further reducing the tactical choices of the fleet.  Another reason not to like.

But the point of making boats pass thru the line on the upwind leg is that if the wind dies, results can be calculated from previous round times (if allowed in the SIs).  Obv stopping boats passing thru the line downwind is so sail numbers of boats going upwind are not obscured.   Or a new start of a different class is not starting and sailing into boats coming downwind thru the line. 

Defining the “downwind” leg is also a problem ….  Consider a 90-180deg wind shift ! 

If the SIs say you cannot pass thro the start/finish line going downwind, that makes it an obstruction.  There are some prohibited areas (e.g. firing ranges) designated by buoys which constitute obstructions.

Consider a 90-180deg wind shift ! Sailing in the Gareloch no doubt.  SIs  could define the leg as between two particular rounding marks.

"But the point of making boats pass thru the line on the upwind leg is that if the wind dies, results can be calculated from previous round times (if allowed in the SIs)."  I would suggest that the normal reason for this instruction is to have the ability to stop a race a lap early if the wind is dying.  I have a big problem with adding loads of spurious SIs that are not necessary.  Been trying to make NoR/SIs simpler, more compact and easier to read for years.  If you need to stop a race because of wind dying - go stop it at a mark or gate.  The problem of sail numbers being obscured by boats on the downwind leg assumes lots of boats.  If you only have around 30 to 40 boats there should be no problem. 

Mike, here is 1 thread, and if you read down in the comments you will see 3 other thread-links to similar discussions. - Ang

https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/1169-restricted-start-finish-line-mark-room

Mike, From that thread …..

Here is one older thread:
https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/368-is-the-start-finish-line-an-obstruction-on-a-downwind-leg

….which included https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/141-closed-line-on-a-course

Here is 2nd one I remembered:

https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/145-closed-line-and-rules-18-and-19

…..“I can’t seem to put my finger on the post about a mid-channel traffic-separation line that boats were not supposed to cross.  That thread had a lot of good ideas and observations in it. “

Then from Tim Hohmann…

I think this is the other one Angelo mentioned:

https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/761-rules-at-a-continuing-obstruction-redux

Mike Forbes

Said Created: Sun 18:23

Windward/Leeward course.

Angelo Guarino
Said Created: Sun 18:24

IIRC, those previous threads were about where the SI said the S/F Line was 'closed' or 'restricted ', and whether that made the line an obstruction, without the SI expressly saying 'The S/F Line is an obstruction'.  The problem being that if the line is not an obstruction, an outside boat can 'shepherd' an inside boat across the line, thus breaking the SI, without herself being penalised.

Mike is posing the question the other way round:  if the SI say the S/F Line is an obstruction, does that mean that boats may not sail through it?

Let's look at the definition 

 An object that a boat could not pass without changing course substantially, if she were sailing directly towards it and one of her hull lengths from it.

An object that can be safely passed on only one side and

an object, area or line so designated by the sailing instructions are also obstructions.

The definition has three limbs.  The first two are objects that actually can physically obstruct a boat.

The third limb, objects, lines or areas designed by the SI, does not have this quality of physical obstruction.

As I construe it, designation of a line as an obstruction by the SI does not prevent or prohibit boats from sailing through the line.

If you want to do that, you need a SI that says 'Boats shall not sail through th S/F Line ... '

Charles Darley

Said Created: Sun 21:15

What's the advantage of making the ends marks rather than the whole line an obstruction? 

We are more familiar with the nuances of mark rounding and with application of rules than with a line defined as an obstruction. For example, is it a continuing obstruction?  Is it unseamanlike to force a boat over it?  

The wording needs to include something like "after starting correctly"  otherwise an OCS boat would have to go around the ends. Prefer the using the idea of marks rather than an obstruction but then I hate the idea of reducing the tactical choices of the competitors.  After all, when training ROs, we put a ot of emphasis on giving the competitors choices and then this reduces those choices.

Charles Darley

Said Created: Today 08:01

As a judge, I don't think I'm any more or less familiar with 'nuances' of rule 18 or rule 19.

An umpire might have difficulty eyeballing exactly where the imaginary obstruction line is when two boats are sailing parallel and close to it, but maybe this logic that i would apply in the protest room would help.

The outside boat protests the inside boat for crossing the line.

If the boats were close together (1 foot, 1 metre) at the instant of the incident, that's when O alleges I crossed the line, then ill probably conclude that O didn't give I room.

If they're further apart, then unless O's evidence is that I sailed straight through the line and kept on going,  then ill probably conclude that the evidence does not prove on balance that I crossed the line, and dismiss the protest.


The RRC has gone to the trouble of putting lines into the definition if obstruction with just this situation in mind.  ISTM we should use it, rather than inventing something else.

Also, they objective of the exercise is to stop boats sailing through the line.  If you just make the ends marks, boats can do all sorts of dipsy doodahs back and forth across the line  and still leave the marks on the required side.

Yes, I think a line as long as a starting line is a continuing obstruction.  All that means is, in a very few cases we have to apply rule 19.2(c).

Why are we concerned whether a boat is sailed in a seamanlike way?  No rule requires a boat to be seamanlike.

Are you thinking about MR Call D1?

In that case the buoy was a physical object, but neither an obstruction nor a mark that I was required to pass on a specified side, so neither rule 18 nor 19 applied, and they were left with rule 16 and the definition of room.

In this case, we've designated the line as an obstruction, so rule 19 applies.

Robin,

I think you're asking for a bit of a Rolls Royce standard of resourcing, and setting the standard a bit high for club racing.

Mike wants to close his line for good and sufficient reason to facilitate count back or average lap scoring, which I understand is quite common in the UK.

It's not like a lazy race committee that wants the finishing line closed because they couldn't be bothered keeping track of boats.

so far, I think the best solution is to have the S/F line to leeward of the downwind mark/gate.  That way, the boats only sail thru/near the line when Starting or Finishing. It has the disadvantage that the CV has to move if a shorten course is signalled.   Tho at a recent regatta, this statement was part of the SI's.......

"In the event of a course being shortened Flag S will be displayed and the finish will be between a rounding mark and a staff displaying flag S. If flag S is displayed at Gate 2 or Mark 2 [the downwind gate/mark] then competitors are to proceed direct to the finish line. This changes RRS rule 32.2."

In this case the Finish line was to leeward of the downwind gate/mark.     Solution ??

Hi Mike - Not happy with that Si as the fleet will assume  they stop at the S flag.  (you and I both know they don't read the SIs fully)   I have used a similar Si but prefer to use F - displayed at the gate (ahead of the s/F line and CV) and the fleet then turn left and finish across the front of the cv as if they had completed all rounds