Forum: Race Officers

Is there a default time limit in the RRS for the RC to change the schedule of races?

P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
Assume we have a 2-day weekend regatta with scheduled first warning at Noon each day with the hope of getting 3-4 races off each day.  Day 1 is a washout due to severe weather and no racing is done Day 1.  Day 2 winds are looking good in the morning, but are predicted to die in the afternoon.  The RC/OA really want to try to get some races in early, but neither the NOR or SI state a time-limit before which changes in the SI's or schedule of races shall be posted to the Notice Board.

Questions: 
  1. Without a time-limit stated in the race documents, is there a default time limit for such changes?
  2. If the RC makes the changes Sunday morning at 8am, and posts this on the Official Notice Board at that time, and a couple boats miss the first start, do they have an avenue for redress?

I seem to recall something in the RRS, but I can't seem to put my finger on it.  It might be that I'm just remembering guidance that I read in either the WS/US Race Management Manuals.
Created: 22-May-19 11:07

Comments

Thomas Koenig
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
  • National Race Officer
0
Apendix S, no. 3 RRS clearly mentions what do do
Created: 22-May-19 12:57
Craig Evans
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Also in  APPENDIX LG SAILING INSTRUCTIONS GUIDE  to the SI's from the WS website it has the following:
 2:  CHANGES TO SAILING INSTRUCTIONS 2.1 J2.2(3) Any change to the sailing instructions will be posted before 0900 on the day it will take effect, except that any change to the schedule of races will be posted by 2000 on the day before it will take effect. Change the times as needed. 
Created: 22-May-19 13:19
Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Race Officer
2
The short answer is no, there is no default time limit in the RRS.
Appendix J2.2(3) requires a procedure for changing the SIs, if not specified in the NOR.

Appendix S is only valid if invoked by the NOR (first statement in App. S).
Appendix LG is "recommended wording" only.

As a practical basis, assuming this is not an Intergalactic Championships, then have the RC prepare a change to the SIs, post and push it out to all registered boats.  Make sure they acknowledge receipt.  Keep your fingers crossed that you get everybody and there are no redress requests.




 
Created: 22-May-19 13:46
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Thomas and Craig, thanks for your replies.

Both Appx S and Appx LG only apply if they are referenced in the NOR or stated in the SI's.

Appx S's 1st line is "This appendix applies only if the notice of race so states."
Appx LG's first line (emphasis added) is: "This guide provides recommended wording for sailing instructions (SIs) [..]"

The premise of the scenario and the questions are that the racing documents did not specify the time .. so let's assume that Appx S was not referenced in the NOR and that the sample/recommended SI language was not made part of the published SI's for the event.

Ang
Created: 22-May-19 13:46
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Matt ... I think you've got it right.  

J2.2 uses "shall ... if the following will apply" .. so if J2.2(3)/(4) are not defined in the NOR or SI, then neither of them "apply" and there is no "official" procedure to change the SI's. 

PS: Change the above statement based on Gordon's subsequent replies.  Changes to the SI's can be made without a time specified as required by J2.2, but they would need to be made in writing and handed to the competitors before their warning signal if J2.2(3)/(4) are not defined in the SI. (see Gordon's replies later in thread)
Created: 22-May-19 13:59
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
1
If the schedule is in the NoR as it should be under J1.1 (6)  then RRS 89.2(b) applies and any change requires adequate notice to be given. I would argue that 08.00 on a day when racing is scheduled to start at 12.00 is not adequate notice.
The SIs should set out the procedure for changing the SIs, including the latest time for chnaging SIs on the ONB. (see RRS90.2(c).
In every case it is both polite and good practice to tell competitors early enough the previous evening if the scheduled time of the first race is to be rescheduled at an earlier time.
Created: 22-May-19 13:59
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Gordon, nice add .. but your operative word is "if" .. "if the schedule is in the NOR".  Appx J1.1(6) seems a bit squishy to me regarding the follow-on races .. other than the practice race and the first race.  So the NOR might get away with not defining Day 2's warning signals .. or could add words like "intend" to the schedule.

PS .. RRS 89.2(b)  tells how to change the NOR .. but we still have an SI with the old start time that can't be changed as RRS 90.2(c) can't be followed.

There's an old joke where a tourist asks local-fella how to get somewhere in Maine, USA .. and after thinking about it a while the local-fella answers, "Sorry, you can't get there from here" :-)
Created: 22-May-19 14:08
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
1
Angelo, if there is nothing in the SIs aboaut a latest time on the ONB then any change needs to be communicated in writing, on the water, before the waring signal. Which does'nt help if you decide to start racing 2 or 3 hours earlier.
It is unecessary to use the word 'intend' as 'will' already expresses an intention. 'The RC intends to....' and 'The RC will...' mean the same thing.'
Created: 22-May-19 14:15
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Gordon .. your parsing of 90.2(c) is helpful and insightful .. thanks.  Let's look at it.....

"90.2(c) The sailing instructions may be changed provided the change is in writing and posted on the official notice board before the time stated in the sailing instructions or, on the water, communicated to each boat before her warning signal. Oral changes may be given only on the water, and only if the procedure is stated in the sailing instructions"

OK .. 1st sentence ends with " .. or, on the water, communicated to each boat before her warning signal.".  The sentence uses "communicated", which at first glance might imply a variety of means of communication. But the next sentence excludes oral changes in our case, as no procedure is stated .. so the only communication method remaining is written .. so as you say it would need to be handed out to the competitors on the water.

Very interesting.
Created: 22-May-19 14:29
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
In the NOR we often include a “no starts after ____ on Sunday” to allow timely haul-outs and travel. One could just as well enter a “no starts before (dawn?)” range for the second and subsequent days with a promise of announcement by X o’clock the day before.  Why tie yourself diwn weeks in advance in the NOR?
Created: 22-May-19 16:01
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
I have been to many events in which the RO posts a notice after racing, about protest time limit, to announce the time of the first warning signal the next day. This allows the RO to take a decision in light of a recent weather forecast.
However, I would suggest that this is fine for elite events. When compeititors have travelled with family and friends they will appreciate sailing starting at a fixed time, as this allows the family group to make plans.

Created: 22-May-19 16:25
Ed Alcock
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Umpire
  • National Judge
1
Q 1: Without a time-limit stated in the race documents, is there a default time limit for such changes?
A 1: No.

Q 2: If the RC makes the changes Sunday morning at 8am, and posts this on the Official Notice Board at that time, and a couple boats miss the first start, do they have an avenue for redress?
A 2: Yes.

Most sailors will understand the dilemma as they want to go racing too. The boats will have to convince the protest committee that their scores were made worse through no fault of their own in light of any race committee efforts to communicate with each boat concerned. A notice at 08:00 changing a 12:00 scheduled start to an earlier time would probably be considered as inadequate in this scenario.



Created: 22-May-19 19:12
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
A sign board (white board) shown to all competitors on the water constitutes non-oral communication.

Created: 22-May-23 21:38
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