Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Rules Question: Mark and immediately following obstruction

P
Paul Zupan
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Judge
I saw an interesting question and answer on SA.  A competitor asks: 
We were on port tack close reach to leeward, inside and overlapped on a boat slightly ahead of us, approaching a mark that needed to be rounded to starboard.

Immediately after the mark and perhaps 3 boat lengths away is a shoreline that necessitates holding a higher reach before being able to fall away to the next mark.

Hailed for room, the other boat gave us about a boat length's room on the buoy, and we got around fine, gybing as was required.

Had to keep the mainsail sheeted in tight to avoid getting to close to the other boat, who was sailing parallel to the shore, and had deeper draft that we did.

Question: did our right to round the mark pre-empt their right to be in a position to request room at the obstruction that was within 3 boat lengths?

My drawing based on the facts indicated and a drawing provided on SA.


Answer by fellow Anarchist:
The notion of mark-room 'expiring' while the entitled boat is still in the zone has been reintroduced in the 2017 rules, after having had a holiday since the 2009 rewrite introducing the 3 hull length zone.

We need to look carefully at the words in the new rules, and can't rely on our recollections of old cases, although these might prove helpful.

Green (G) was overlapped inside Blue (B) when the first of them reached that zone, so B was required to give G mark-room (rule ( b )), (as well as keeping clear as the windward boat (rule )).

The mark-room G was entitled to was room to leave the mark on the required side. Also, (a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and (B) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course. (Definitions: ).

Once G had been given that mark-room, her entitlement to mark-room in accordance with rule ( b ) and (c) ceased to apply (rule ( d )). That is to say, once G had left the mark on the required side and it was no longer necessary for her to continue rounding it to sail the course, her entitlement to mark-room under under rules ( b ) and ( c ) ceased. In other words, her entitlement (under rules ( b ), and ( c )) to mark-room, ceased when she no longer needed it. The entitlement may cease before the mark becomes clear astern.

Note that even though an entitlement to mark-room under rule ( b ) and ( c ) may have ceased it may still be possible for a fresh entitlement to mark room for an inside overlapped boat to arise under rule ( a ).

In the diagram, G will have rounded the mark as necessary to sail the course when her heading clears, by a minimum prudent margin, the SW corner of the obstruction, that is, somewhere between position [5] and position [6]. That's the time when G's entitlement to mark-room ceases.

G's entitlement to mark-room certainly did not cease when she gybed around position [4]: mark-room includes room to gybe as necessary, and applies before and after the gybe if necessary.

G's entitlement to mark-room is not affected by any entitlement that B may have gained to room to pass the obstruction under rule . Rules and operate independently of one another. Neither rule takes precedence over the other.

It might be possible that the gap between the mark and the obstruction was so narrow that there was insufficient space for B to give G mark-room and for G to give B room to pass the obstruction, then B would break rule  and G would break rule . That would be very bad race management and hopefully a protest committee would, on valid request, give both boats redress.

Once G gybed, B became the right of way boat, even though she owed G mark-room. B is not required to anticipate that G will not keep clear and will not give G room at the obstruction (Case ). Nobodies obligations or entitlements are affected by whether they placed themselves in a position where they could, or could not later do something.

Thoughts?
Created: 17-Feb-22 16:22

Comments

Eric Rimkus
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Correct me if I am wrong, but from the diagram the Obstruction is a bit of a non-issue since B is a leeward boat not restricted by Rule 17. B can sail whatever course she chooses at the moment she meets 18.2(d) and G's course is no longer influenced by the mark.
Somewhere between positions 4 & 5, the mark no longer influences G's course and B would be able to sail away from the obstruction if she so desired or needed to. 

What if the obstruction was so close to the mark (say there's only enough room for one boat to pass between the mark and obstruction) and was a continuing obstruction?  Rule 19 would apply and Rule 18 would not and therefore G may not be entitled to mark-room from the outset and it would be a same tack, overlapped scenario until the obstruction came into play?
It would definitely not be the best, safest, or fairest race management. 
Created: 17-Feb-22 19:02
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Israel
0
What if the obstruction was so close to the mark (say there's only enough room for one boat to pass between the mark and obstruction) and was a continuing obstruction?  Rule 19 would apply and Rule 18 would not


I think it (underline text) is wrong. In my opinion the last sentence of rule 19.1 treat when a continuing obstruction is also and a mark.

 So when we have a mark and a obstruction the rule 18 apply at the mark and 19 apply at the obstruction (as has been said above: "Rules 18 and 19 operate independently of one another")

Created: 17-Feb-23 13:28
William Grauer
Nationality: United States
0
Please, what software is used to make this diagram?
Created: 17-Feb-24 14:51
P
Paul Zupan
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Judge
0
It is TSS
Created: 17-Feb-24 16:19
William Grauer
Nationality: United States
0
Thank you.
Created: 17-Feb-24 20:47
Eric Rimkus
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
What if the obstruction was so close to the mark (say there's only enough room for one boat to pass between the mark and obstruction) and was a continuing obstruction?  Rule 19 would apply and Rule 18 would not

I think it (underline text) is wrong. In my opinion the last sentence of rule 19.1 treat when a continuing obstruction is also and a mark. So when we have a mark and a obstruction the rule 18 apply at the mark and 19 apply at the obstruction (as has been said above: "Rules 18 and 19 operate independently of one another")


Initially I had the exact same belief, that the intention of the last sentence of 19.1 was related to when the continuing obstruction was a mark and Rule 18 and Rule 19 would operate independent of each other when the mark and continuing obstruction are two separate objects.  But that isn't what the rule says (in my opinion) so I am interested to see where this discussion goes.

19.1 When Rule 19 Applies

Rule 19 applies between two boats at an obstruction except

 (a) when the obstruction is a mark the boats are required to leave on the same side, or

 (b) when rule 18 applies between the boats and the obstruction is another boat overlapped with each of them

However, at a continuing obstruction, rule 19 always applies and rule 18 does not.

While in the slightly modified scenario that I proposed Rule 18 may initially apply when the boats reach the zone of the mark and are ~4.5 hull lengths from a continuing obstruction, and G (inside overlapped) would be entitled to mark-room from B (outside overlapped) as they approach the mark.  However, once B requires room to avoid the continuing obstruction even if:

 they haven't reached the mark, and 

 B has not met their obligations under 18.2(d), 

then from the last sentence of 19.1, 

 rule 19 always applies and rule 18 does not, 

I would believe that Rule 18 ceases to apply in its entirety and B is entitled to the room they require to avoid the continuing obstruction even if that means that G ends up on the wrong side of the mark.

After reading 19.1 several times I believe that if the intention of the last sentence of 19.1 was to apply only at a continuing obstruction which is also a mark then it would have said that; something to the effect of, "However, at a mark which is a continuing obstruction, rule 19 always applies and rule 18 does not."

Looking forward to further discussion of this,

Eric


Created: 17-Feb-24 21:57
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Israel
0
Hi Eric.
I certainly see your point and maybe it could be better written in the rule 19.
But I still  think “always” means only «even when a continuing obstruction is a mark». This is also a view of  the RYA Racing Rules Committee – see  RYA Case 1985/3 (http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Racing/RacingInformation/RacingCharter/Case%20Book%202017%20-%202020.pdf).

Probably the final point in our discussion can put only the WS (by The Case Book or Q&A)?

Boris

Created: 17-Feb-27 08:43
Graham Kelly
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
In response to Eric Rimkus' and Boris Kuzminof's ruminations, it seems pretty clear that B cannot have any rights under rule 19 until she is "between" G and the obstruction. So it would appear that rule 19 cannot shut-off rule 18 until B turns past DDW at the mark, in around position 3.5 in the diagram (midway between 3 and 4.) At that point, she only gets room if G can provide it, and if it was possible for G to have provided it from the time the overlap began, which was at position 3. However, at position 3, B was still the outside boat, and she was relying on G to fulfill her obligations under 18.4 and sail no farther from the mark than was needed for G to sail her proper course. However, once B is DDW, she becomes the inside boat under rule 19, and under rule 21, it seems that B can pretty much put her helm hard over once she becomes the inside boat under rule 19, without regard to rules 15 and 16, which would ordinarily restrict the actions of a ROW boat. However, she is still obligated under rule 14 to avoid contact, and can be penalized if there is damage.

Two things come to mind:
1. Depending on how far it is from the mark to the obstruction, it seems that the prudent course for B might be to extend a bit further before turning, so she would be clear astern of G after jibing, in order to avoid a collision or grounding, and
2. The rulemakers did not consider this situationt. 

This would be a great question for the WS Q&A.
Created: 17-Mar-05 20:55
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Israel
0
This would be a great question for the WS Q&A
Which  question exactly?
Created: 17-Mar-07 13:26
Graham Kelly
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
"Which  question exactly?"

For starters: "Should the Race Committee be hanged or shot for setting a course like that?" when a "rule 19" continuing obstruction is that close to a mark of the course. 

Actually, I was referring to the conflict between 18 and 19, and the issue between those rules when the positions reverse b/c the boats have reversed course, which could be because of a jibe or rounding a mark, and how the "when the overlap was established" should apply in this situation.
Created: 17-Mar-10 02:20
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Israel
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