Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Rule 28.2 - Definition of FINISH

Roland Dano
Nationality: France
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
A boat crosses the finish line. 
He realizes that he passed the last mark on the wrong side.
He goes back and passes the last mark correctly.
Then he crosses the Finish Line.
In accordance with the rule 28.2, can we score it (at the second cross)?

Thanks for your help.
Created: 22-Jan-06 18:25

Comments

Brad Alberts
Nationality: United States
0
Good question. This boat would need to take their second finish time (under PHRF) or note other boats finishing around them (one design), and then report their error and finish information to the RC. 
Created: 22-Jan-06 18:52
P
Peter van Muyden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • International Race Officer
2
Hi Roland,

If the boat started and crossed the finish line from the course side, you must as per the definitions of "Finish" & "Sail the Course" and RRS A5.2 score the boat NSC.
Created: 22-Jan-06 18:56
Bob Scott
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
1
I'll try and get schooled.  Depends on whether the boat met the conditions of the definition of Sail the Course.  In my understanding, she would need to unwind the first crossing of the finish line - since the finish line is a mark and in her first "crossing" she would have passed that mark in the incorrect order (portion (a) of the definition).  If she did unwind the out of order finish, then she would be scored at the second cross.

Ready, GO!
Created: 22-Jan-06 18:56
Wayne Balsiger
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
1
Yes.  
A boat may unwind their mistake and correct it, so their course is on the correct side of each mark (the 'string rule'). They then should be scored when they cross the finish line.  See definition Sail the Course. 

Definition
Sail the Course A boat sails the course provided that a string representing her track from the time she begins to approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start until she finishes, when drawn taut,
(a)
passes each mark of the course for the race on the required side and in the correct order,
(b)
touches each mark designated in the sailing instructions to be a rounding mark, and
(c)
passes between the marks of a gate from the direction of the course from the previous mark.

Wayne


Created: 22-Jan-06 18:58
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
5
Bob, if she missed a previous mark, then she is still on the leg to that missed mark. 
Hence the finish line mark does not bound that leg of the course and has no required side. It does not need be unwound.
Created: 22-Jan-06 19:01
Brad Alberts
Nationality: United States
0
If a boat hasn't sailed the course (missed the previous mark), the finish line wouldn't qualify as a finish line, would it? 
Created: 22-Jan-06 19:02
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
2
See World Sailing Case 112 Question 2.

Question 2
When does A break rule 28.1?
Answer 2
A makes an error when she leaves the first mark on the wrong side. However, rule 28.2 allows her to correct her error at any time before she
finishes, but not thereafter. Therefore, A does not break rule 28.1 until she finishes.
Created: 22-Jan-06 19:04
Brad Alberts
Nationality: United States
0
If the offending boat misses a mark, is she actually finishing? 
Created: 22-Jan-06 19:07
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
0
To Phil's statement "If she missed a previous mark, then she is still on the leg to that missed mark." See World Sailing Case 126 Question 1.

Question 1
For the purposes of rule 23.2, were L and W sailing on the same leg of the course or different legs when L luffed W?
Answer 1
For the purpose of determining whether rule 23.2 applies to an incident, a boat is sailing on the leg which is consistent with the course she is sailing before the incident and with her reasons for sailing that course. L had not started, but she was unaware that she had made that error. Therefore, L was sailing on the leg of the course to the leeward mark. Clearly W was on the same leg. Therefore, when L luffed W, rule 23.2 did not apply between them.
Created: 22-Jan-06 19:09
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
2
To Brad's question. "If the offending boat misses a mark, is she actually finishing?"

Yes, See definition of FinishThere is no requirement for a boat to sail the course to finish. As none of the exceptions in the definition apply the boat finishes when she first crosses the finish line.

Finish A boat finishes when, after starting, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she
(a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2,
(b) corrects an error in sailing the course made at the line, or
(c) continues to sail the course.
Created: 22-Jan-06 19:20
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
0
I think the question boils down to, when the boat first crossed the finish line did she do so "to finish" or did she "continue to sail the course" when she decided to return to correct her error?

I think I'd tend toward recording the first finish (and score NSC). I don't see why the boat would cross the finish line the first time if she was not doing so "to finish". If she realized after crossing the line to finish that she failed to sail the course I think that's too late for her to correct her error per rule 28.2.
Created: 22-Jan-06 19:30
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
2
Option (c) continues to sail the course, was added to the exceptions for the case where a boat is sailing a multilap that requires them to finish one lap to start the next. Before the exception was added it was impossible to sail a multilap course as you always finished when you crossed the start/finish line at the end of the first lap. Most people ignored the problem as it was obvious that they hadn't finished.

Having added continues to sail the course to the list of exceptions, there now seems to be an argument to be made that a boat is continuing to sail the course by going back to correct her error in sailing the course. WS Case 112 question 1 and 2 seem to address that issue.

CASE 112
A boat that makes, and does not correct, an error in sailing the course does not break rule 28.1 until she finishes. If a boat makes such an error, a second boat may notify the first that she intends to protest before the first boat finishes, or at the first reasonable opportunity after the first boat finishes.
Facts
Boat A leaves the first mark of the course on the wrong side. Then, without correcting her error, she sails the remainder of the course correctly and crosses the finishing line from the course side and then returns to the harbour. Another boat, B, sees A leave the first mark on the wrong side and decides to protest her.

Question 1
Does A finish when she crosses the finishing line?
Answer 1
A finishes provided that she crosses the finishing line in accordance with the definition Finish, whether or not she has sailed the course in accordance with the definition Sail the Course. Because A did not continue to sail the course after crossing the finishing line, she finished in accordance with the definition at the time she crossed the line (see definition Finish (c)).

Question 2
When does A break rule 28.1?
Answer 2
A makes an error when she leaves the first mark on the wrong side. However, rule 28.2 allows her to correct her error at any time before she finishes, but not thereafter. Therefore, A does not break rule 28.1 until she finishes.
Created: 22-Jan-06 20:07
Mark Evans
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
  • Club Race Officer
0
After reading the thread, the one question that has not been answered is if the mark could be passed on either side.  Case #90
 Definitions, Sail the Course CASE 90 When a boat’s string passes a mark on the required side, she does not break rule 28.2 if her string, when drawn taut, also passes that mark on the nonrequired side. 
Barring that, did the boat violate a restricted area where they sailed?
If this is not the case, then I would have to agree with the second time the boat went across the finish line is the only time they actually finished.
Created: 22-Jan-06 20:07
Brent Draney
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
1
If a boat were to have a spinnaker issue at a leeward gate above the finish line and go through the finish would you consider this finishing and score them NSC?  There obviously has to be an end to being able to correct mistakes and I've seen several PROs say that after a boat is no longer attempting to sail the course (start to reach back and forth at the starting line for the next race) they can't then attempt to correct.  
Created: 22-Jan-06 20:11
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Mark E, re: " the one question that has not been answered is if the mark could be passed on either side.  Case #90 "

Brent, re: " spinnaker issue at a leeward gate above the finish line and go through the finish would you consider this finishing and score them NSC? "

That's not what Case 90 implies or says.  For an object to be a Mark, it must have a required side on the leg in question (see def: Mark)... otherwise such an object does not meet the definition of a mark.

What Case 90 is saying is that, as long as you eventually pass each mark on its required side in the required order, it doesn't matter if you pass those marks also on the opposite side out of order.

For instance .. course is set for Start, M1, M2, M3, Finish, with all Marks passed to port.  

  1. If a boat starts, 
  2. rounds M1 to port, 
  3. passes M2 to starboard, 
  4. rounds M3 to port, 
  5. goes through the finish-line, rounds the pin (does not "unwind" the finish), 
  6. sails directly to M2 and rounds to port (does not "unwind" M3), 
  7. rounds M3 to port
  8. crosses the finish-line

This boat starts, sails-the-course and finishes properly IMO.

PS: Note at positions 11-13, that by the time Orange clears BOTH the line and the mark, she was already engaged in “sailing the course”.   

I don’t know that I would come to the same conclusion if she crossed in the middle of the line and sailed clear of it for a few boat lengths.  In this middle-of-line case, she would seem to clearly have reached a state of “not racing”. (See US16, US26, Case 127). 

image.png 97.2 KB
Created: 22-Jan-06 22:21
Stewart Campbell
Nationality: Australia
0
I'd say that if he chose to go back to the last Mark, round it correctly, then his position is counted when he finishes from having correctly rounded the last Mark..
Consider the drawing below. Yellow sails the course normally and properly. Blue sails a little longer on the port tack before tacking for the final Mark - but in the process crosses the Finish Line. Surely Blue would not be scored NSC?

Finished or Not 220106.png 81.9 KB
Created: 22-Jan-06 23:15
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Race Officer training emphatically instructs to score only the last time that a boat crosses the finish line.
Created: 22-Jan-07 02:40
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Caveat is if the SI forbids crossing the finish line except when finishing!
Boat must take the penalty, if one is available.
Created: 22-Jan-07 02:42
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Russian Federation
0
 For an object to be a Mark, it must have a required side on the leg in question (see def: Mark)... otherwise such an object does not meet the definition of a mark.
I think you are wrong - in the Definition there are no words (and it is not implied) "on the leg in question", so a Mark is Mark always. See also RRS31, RRS 18.1 ... Caces...
Created: 22-Jan-07 14:18
Stewart Campbell
Nationality: Australia
0
Boris, I disagree. " Mark An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified side, - -". The sailing instructions will define the course and the order in which the marks are rounded, and on which side. A buoy is therefore not a Mark unless it is specified as part of the course. It is perfectly possible to have a course in which a buoy may (edit - "must", not "may") be rounded on different sides, depending on the leg of the course. In our RC racing, the starting or finishing line buoys are often used as Marks of the course, with specified, and frequently different, rounding sides according to the leg of the course, as specified in the "sailing instructions".
Created: 22-Jan-07 14:46
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Boris, you are correct that the words “on the leg in question” are not in def: “Mark” … I should have been clearer when I wrote that.  

What I was saying is that, when you combine …

  • Rule 31’s, “…[she] shall not touch…a mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course on which she is sailing,” , and
  • Rule 28.2’s, “.. she may leave on either side a mark that does not begin, bound or end the leg she is sailing“

… an object that is defined as a Mark in the SI but doesn’t begin, bound or end the leg the boat is sailing on, is basically reduced back to a simple object.

As Stewart points out too, marks can be named more than once in the course, with different sides on different legs … or often I’ve seen SI’s define Gov’t marks as “boundary/passing” marks indicating that boats shall pass them “on the channel side”.

It is worth acknowledging that, when SI’s use this “channel side” language, we flip the reference to what “side” refers.

Normally, we refer to a boat passing a mark on the port or starboard side, which  refers to the “side” of the boat.  When using “channel side” the word “side” is now referring to the side of the mark and not the boat.

This could be confusing to racers when determining whether 18 applies between boats sailing in opposite directions on different legs.  Rule 18 states, “Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side

A competitor could get confused that 18 applies by thinking they are both leaving the mark on the “same side” since both boats are passing the mark on the “channel side” as indicated in the SI’s, when actually they are required to pass this mark on opposite sides (one port, one starboard). 
Created: 22-Jan-07 15:52
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Russian Federation
0
Boris, I disagree.
I too, Stewart, sorry  ;) 
Why, then, does Rule 31 say "a mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg"? It would be enough to write just "a mark".
 Also note that the Definition says not only about "An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified side" but also (after the comma!) about "a race committee vessel ...".
Created: 22-Jan-07 16:23
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Russian Federation
0
Hi Angelo
  • Rule 28.2’s, “.. she may leave on either side a mark (!!!) that does not begin, bound or end the leg she is sailing“

- Here is the best proof of my point of view that a mark is always the Mark.


Created: 22-Jan-07 16:41
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Boris, yes, (again) .. you are correct. A mark is a mark, but is effectively treated as just an object when it doesn’t begin, bound, or end the leg a boat is sailing on.
Created: 22-Jan-07 16:58
Stewart Campbell
Nationality: Australia
0
I think we are in danger of becoming bogged down in semantics. An object described as a "Mark" is always a Mark of the course - but not necessarily a Mark of the leg. I used the word "buoy" to differenciate between an object that might be a Mark of the course sometimes, from a Mark of the leg which has a rounding side.
Created: 22-Jan-07 18:48
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
0
I agree, a mark is a mark if it meets the definition. But touching a mark doesn't always break rule 31.
Created: 22-Jan-07 19:31
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Tim .. “a mark is a mark [of course of course]”

… just waiting for someone to work this into the “Mr Ed” theme song :-) (Man, I’m really dating myself now!). 


Created: 22-Jan-07 19:47
Stewart Campbell
Nationality: Australia
0
Agreed, Tim, and you only get Mark Room (R18) if it is a Mark which has a correct side to pass (etc) - though it might rank as an obstruction.
Created: 22-Jan-07 20:08
Stewart Campbell
Nationality: Australia
1
Hello, I'm Mr Mark
"A Mark is a Mark of the course of course
And no one can hit a Mark of course.
That is of course unless the Mark
Is another leg's Mark instead!"
Created: 22-Jan-07 20:14
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
0
In Case 112, Boat A returns to the harbor after finishing.  We can infer that it was the last race of the day or the starting are is in the harbor.  Please consider the following Laser (ILCA) scenario:
Laser finish.jpg 117 KB

First race of the day. The leader, green, did not do a good job remembering the Sailing Instructions requiring boats to leave the leeward mark, Mark 2, to port on the last leg before finishing.  As green crosses the finish line at position 3, her skipper expects a sound signal for line honors (sound signals are not required by the rules, but it is the tradition at this regatta).  There is no sound signal.  Green clears the line, her skipper puzzled.  A few moments later Blue crosses the finish line and receives a sound signal.  A light bulb goes off in the green laser skipper's head "Holy cow, I should have left the leeward mark to port".  Green heads back up the course, leaves the windward mark to port, and crosses the finish line ahead of 2/3rds of the fleet.

What is Green's status in the race?  
Created: 22-Jan-07 20:20
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
"Finished."
If it had been a leeward mark followed by a windward finish, she would have to unwind and round to port before proceeding.
Created: 22-Jan-07 20:24
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Okay.  I slipped in the fact that "Green clears the line" meaning she is no longer racing per the definition of racing.  Can a boat not racing resume racing?  The closest guidance I can find is Appeal 26, but I may be overlooking something.
Created: 22-Jan-07 20:46
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
0
I believe that Green's status should be NSC. I think that she initially crossed the finish line to finish, so her opportunity to correct her error was turned off by 28.2.

Contrast that with Stewart's earlier diagram (passing over that I don't think any sane RC would set a course like that...) - if Blue knew at position 3 that she still had to tack and round the last mark then she did not at that point cross the finish line to finish, she knew that she would still continue to sail the course and finish at position 17. But if she thought she was finishing at 4 and had an "oh crap" moment when she saw Yellow tack for the last mark, Blue has crossed the finish line to finish and can no longer correct her error.

I don't really like that conclusion as it requires a certain amount of mind-reading, but otherwise I'm not sure that 28.2 has any use. Seems to me you need some sort of demarcation between "crossed the finish line but continued to sail the course" and "cleared the finish line and no longer racing".
Created: 22-Jan-07 20:56
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Stewart ... Mr Ed .. BRILLIANT!! LMAO. :-)
Created: 22-Jan-07 21:02
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
0
And if Green realized her error as she was crossing the line to finish?  Still racing but prohibited by Rule 28.2 to correct any errors in sailing the course.
I have thought about 28.2 as well and can only come up with leaving a finish mark on the wrong side.  I have seen that only once just this year.  A mark vessel had a blue RC Flag displayed and was hanging around the pin end the the finish line.  Several boats passed between the mark vessel and the pin.  It is a good case for Yellow RC flags for mark vessels.
Created: 22-Jan-07 21:26
Greg Dargavel
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
I believe the phrase "crossed the finish line but continued to sail the course" which causes all the "problem" in this situation is part of the finish definition for use where a course might have a mid leg start/finish line and multiple laps. On this type of course on legs that do not lead to finish a vessel may cross that line a number of times continuing on to another defined mark of the course. When they cross this line at these times it is the finish line, but not being used to finish, thus the RC knows not to record the crossing as a finish. In the original question, to my mind, that boat is S.O.L.    ......somewhat outta luck..... and should be scored NSC. 
Created: 22-Jan-07 21:32
Rob Overton
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • International Umpire
1
I love Stewart's comment, "I think we are in danger of becoming bogged down in semantics."
Created: 22-Jan-07 22:18
Stewart Campbell
Nationality: Australia
0
Tim. You think not? I've seen course finishing line very like that at the 2019 Aussie IOM Nationals in Queensland (so that the Race Officer can see the boats cross the finishing line). And the 2019 UK Nationals in Easbourne had some races also like that with a short reaching leg to the Finishing Line, for the same reason. 
Created: 22-Jan-07 22:30
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
0
Stewart, if RC want boats to finish close to the committee boat why not just set a short finish line?
Created: 22-Jan-07 22:40
Stewart Campbell
Nationality: Australia
0
Tim. This is RC (Radio Controlled) racing (International One Metres). We have to control our boats from the shore and within a limited Control Area. Race Officer can't view the boats from anywhere other than the control area used by the skippers. So, we really have to have the Finishing Line so we can see the order of boats crossing the line. Here's a pic at the start of a race, showing how we control boats, only from one shore and sometimes within a fairly small control area, so the Finishing Line HAS to be lined up with the shore (like the Start Line shown here). But we get a fantastic overview of tactics!
Screenshot 2022-01-07 231323.png 522 KB


Created: 22-Jan-07 23:15
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
I like Mark T’s Case 112 reference. It seems to almost answer the question, but how it is setup and answered seems to leave the door a little open IMO.

Case 112 Setup: The boat crosses the finish-line and “returns to the harbor” (apparently not seen again on the race course).  Clearly in this circumstance, the boat didn’t continue racing. 

  • OP Setup and Jerry’s Laser example, we have boats cross, remain close to the finish, pause for some short amount of time, return to the race-course and round the marks correctly and cross a second time. 

  • My (Ang’s) Orange boat dwg example, we have a boat crossing the FL out of order but not as a natural consequence of sailing her laylines, but also no pause in her sailing.  Orange immediately rounds the pin and returns to the race course to correct her error. 

  • Stewart’s Yellow and Blue Dwg example, we have a boat crossing the finish line as a natural consequence of sailing her laylines to the next mark. No pause in sailing Blue once the boat crossed and cleared the line. 

Case 112 Answer 1 states that, “[…] Because A did not continue to sail the course after crossing the finishing line, she finished in accordance with the definition at the time she crossed the line (see definition Finish (c)).

Answer 1 does not state that Boat A could not continue to sail the course.  Using the words “because” and “did not”, Case 112 seems to hinge its determination upon A’s actions “after crossing the finish line” (returning to the harbor). 

I could argue that this seems to leave open the possibility of a different outcome based upon A’s actions after crossing the finish-line.
Created: 22-Jan-08 14:12
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
We haven’t spent much time considering the wording of def: finish (2) (emphasis added)

Def Finish: […] However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she (2) [corrects an error in sailing the course made at the line]an error under rule 28.2 made at the line  [correction after Peter’s comment below].

If a boat was generally able to correct a 28.2 [‘sail the course’] error after crossing the finishing line, “made at the line” would be unnecessary. 

Also, for those who would argue that a momentary pause is acceptable, consider whether that boat could be DSQ’d if they were validly protested and found to break a rule of Part 2 immediately after or at the end of their “pause” while attempting to correct her 28.2 error (assuming no injury or damage). 
Created: 22-Jan-08 17:17
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Somewhere, probably in RO training, I have seen time limits described as useful in preventing the boat that returned to harbor from returning to the race course to correct an error (and allowing the RO team to end their day).
This would suggest that there is no real limit on making corrections...
Created: 22-Jan-08 18:17
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Follow-on on Stewart's radio-sailing comments:
By Appendix E rule, Appointed Observers and Umpires who make racecourse calls are limited to the same viewing positions as racers, i.e., in the Control Area.
However, the Race Committee is not limited to that area by any rule.
At Stewart's race venue there is probably a geographic limitation.

Created: 22-Jan-08 18:32
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Peter van Muyden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • International Race Officer
0
A post about Finishing like this one is guaranteed to get lots of suggestions and opinions which I think is great.  It shows that people are engaged.  

I recall that the definition of Finish has been changed in each of the last four updates of the rules and probably more.

Thank you, Ang for the Finish definition comment.  Please note that your reference an error under rule 28.2 made at the line is from the 2017-2020 RRSIt has been replaced with an error in sailing the course made at the line in the 2021-2024 RRS, but the meaning is the same.

A sound or absence of a sound when a boat crosses the line could give the boat a false sense of security.   It doesn’t mean that the boat has or has not started, finished, sail the course, been disqualified,  taken all it’s penalties. etc.   Jerry noted already that this sound is not an RRS requirement.  

There was a post regarding race management training.  Training should be based on the rules and not the other way around. The rules are changing every four years and training materials should be reviewed after each change.

Created: 22-Jan-08 21:11
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
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  • Regional Judge
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Thanks Peter for that correction.  I had set the rules back to the last quad while I was researching something and forgot to change it back!
Created: 22-Jan-09 02:50
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
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I had hoped that maybe the definition of “continue” might lend a hand, but the dictionary definitions of “continue” show that it can be used to describe both an uninterrupted(1,5a) state as well as the resumption of an activity after an interruption (4, 5b).

From Merriam-Webster… “Continue

Definition of continue
1: to maintain without interruption a condition, course, or action
“The boat continued downstream.”
2: to remain in existence : ENDURE
“The tradition continues to this day.”
3: to remain in a place or condition : STAY
“We cannot continue here much longer.”
4: to resume an activity after interruption
“We'll continue after lunch.”
5a: KEEP UP, MAINTAIN
continues walking”
b: to keep going or add to : PROLONG
continue the battle” .. also  : to resume after intermission
Created: 22-Jan-10 14:35
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
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0
OK .. spent just a little more time trying to narrow this question.  What about this approach?

I think Case 127 may make it hard to argue that any sort of "pause" is acceptable (emphasis added below).  

Case 127 Answer
A boat clears the finishing line and marks when the following two conditions are met: no part of her hull, crew or equipment is on the line, and no finishing mark is influencing her choice of course.

For example, a boat that clears the finishing line and then continues to sail toward a finishing mark, where current sets her into the mark, is still racing and has broken rule 31. However, a boat that crosses the finishing line, and sails to a position at which no finishing mark is influencing her choice of course, is no longer racing. If, later, she hits a finishing mark, she does not break rule 31.

Question: Once a boat is no longer in a state of racing, what rule provides the ability to retroactively change a boat from 'not-racing' to 'racing' based upon some future action by the boat?   I can't find one.

If we look at Case 127 (as well as and in the US) I'd argue that they lead us to a specific time to determine whether or not a boat 'continues to sail the course', which is the moment as Case 127 describes it; "... [when the boat] crosses the finishing line, and sails to a position at which no finishing mark is influencing her choice of course".

At that specific moment, we ask the question: "Is the boat continuing to "sail the course?".  
  • If the answer is "yes", then she has not finished and therefore is still racing.
  • If the answer is "no", she has both finished and is no longer racing (and no subsequent action on her part can put her back into a state of racing in this race).

If we were to apply this test to the OP and examples provided on this thread, I'd like to suggest the following (and please pipe-up if you disagree and why).

  • OP Setup and Jerry’s Laser example, we have boats cross, remain in the finishing area, pause for some amount of time, return to the race-course and round the marks correctly and cross a second time. 
    • Assuming that during this "pause", these boats cleared the FL and marks as described in Case 127, score the boats NSC.

  • Stewart’s Yellow and Blue Dwg example, we have a boat crossing the finish line as a natural consequence of sailing her laylines to the next mark. No pause in sailing Blue once the boat crossed and cleared the line. 
    • IMO, Blue is clearly "sailing the course" at position 4.5.  Score Blue at her 2nd crossing.

  • My (Ang’s) Orange boat dwg example, we have a boat crossing the FL out of order but not as a natural consequence of sailing her laylines, but also no pause in her sailing.  Orange immediately closely-rounds the pin and returns to the race course to correct her error. 
    • I would suggest that Orange is not clear of the pin-mark as described in Case 127 until about position 13.  
    • At 13 is Orange "continue[ing] to sail the course"?  If we think this test is valid and we say she is sailing the course at 13, then we'd say score Orange at her 2nd crossing position.
Created: 22-Jan-11 16:48
Philip Hubbell
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Okay, I will pipe up:
Using a Case Answer to a specific question and turning it around to use on an entirely different question does not fly for me.
Created: 22-Jan-11 19:22
P
Angelo Guarino
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Philip ...OK.. what specific aspect of Case 127's discussion of when a boat is no longer racing do you feel is not applicable?   I think both Case 112 and 127 work.
Created: 22-Jan-11 19:48
Jerry Thompson
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I looked back to find when and the reasons "corrects an error under rule 28.1 made at the line." was added to Rule 28.  I learned it was there early on and removed in 2005.

RRS Study Version 2013-2016

Submission 151-11
Proposal 1
28.1 A boat shall start, leave each mark on the required side in the correct order, and finish,
so that a string representing her track after starting and until finishing would when
drawn taut
(a) pass each mark on the required side,
(b) touch each rounding mark, and
(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the previous mark.
She may correct any errors to comply with this rule, provided she has not already
finished. After finishing she need not cross the finishing line completely.

Current Position, As above.

Reasons for Proposal 1
In the 2001-2004 rules, the sentence in rule 28.1 about correcting errors read as follows, “She may correct
any errors to comply with this rule, provided she has not already finished.” That sentence was changed in
2005 by deleting the phrase “provided she has not already finished.”

The proposal restores the phrase that was deleted in 2005. Since then there has frequently been debate,
even among rules experts, as to when a boat is not longer permitted to correct an error she made under
rule 28.1 while sailing the course. Clearly, there ought to be a specified time after which a boat may no
longer correct such an error. That time was clearly stated in rule 28.1 prior to 2005. Therefore, to remove
the confusion about when an error may be corrected, this proposal reinstates the phrase that was used in
rule 28.1 prior to 2005.

The reason for deleting the phrase in 2005 was that a boat could inadvertently cross the finishing line, for
example, after rounding the leeward mark on the second leg of a four-leg course. If she did, she would be
recorded as having finished. Furthermore, if she then completed the course and crossed the finishing line
a second time, she would not be scored in the finishing place she was in at the time of her ‘second finish’.
If the companion submission to change the definition Finish is approved, such a boat would be scored in
the finishing position she was in at the time of her ‘second finish’.

More coming..
Created: 22-Jan-11 20:15
Jerry Thompson
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RRS Study Version 2013-2016

Submission 251-11
Proposal 3
Finish A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position,
crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark. However, she has not
finished if after crossing the finishing line she
(a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2, or
(b) corrects an error under rule 28.1 made at the line.
REMOVE - either for the first time or after taking a penalty under rule 44.2 or, after correcting an error
made at the finishing line, under rule 28.1.

Current Position, As above.

Reasons for Proposal 3
The current definition’s use of “either . . . or . . .” in one long sentence results in a definition that
is ambiguous and that can be interpreted to mean something very different from its intended
meaning. It is not at all clear that, after crossing the finishing line when a boat takes a penalty
under rule 44.2 or corrects an error under rule 28.1 made at the line, her first crossing of the line
does not “count” as her finish, and she has not finished until she crosses the line in the correct
direction a second time after taking her penalty or correcting her error. The proposal makes it
easy for the reader to see that, as intended, such a boat does not finish until she crosses the line a
second time. Also, breaking the current definition’s one long sentence into two sentences makes
the definition easier to read.

Created: 22-Jan-11 20:17
Jerry Thompson
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Finally, Dick Rose explains in Sailing World
Sailing World November 1, 2001
28.2.jpg 9.16 KB



Dick Rose Article
"In the diagram, the last mark of the course is a leeward mark, set south of the finish line. The pin end of the line has dragged downwind, but in order to finish in compliance with the definition, boats are required to finish by crossing the line in an upwind or northwesterly direction because that is the most direct course from the leeward mark. Between positions 1 and 2, Fran crosses the line in the wrong direction. The race committee does not give her a finishing signal and, at position 2, she realizes her error. Now, she has two problems–she has not finished and she has broken Rule 28.1 because the string representing her wake is now on the wrong side of the pin end of the finish line. To correct both errors, she must sail back across the line (position 3), circle the pin end, leaving it to port, and finish by crossing the line in a northwesterly direction (position 4).

Under the old definition of finish, she could not have corrected her error because at position 3 she would have finished, but she would have still been in violation of Rule 28.1. Under the new definition of finish, a boat may correct her Rule 28.1 error before finishing and will not be recorded as having finished until she’s done so."

Based upon all that I have read, I do not think there is any correcting sailing the course after finishing unless the error was made at the finish line.

Great conversation.
Created: 22-Jan-11 20:24
P
Peter van Muyden
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Ang,

I don't agree that according to the Finish definition Orange should have been scored on her 2nd crossing.   If this is correct, why would the definition of finish contain "(b) corrects an error in sailing the course made at the line, or;"?  Anyway, let agree to disagree, but I'll submit a World Sailing Q& A regarding this example.   They should be able to settle this for all of us.   

I would agree with your second crossing score if the boat made contact with the pin at position 11.   In that case the boat would have been finished at position 11, but she would not have finished at position 14 and can correct her "Sailing the Course" error which she did.   At position 14 she took the penalty (RRS 44.2) for contact with the pin.  



Created: 22-Jan-11 20:27
Philip Hubbell
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Mark's reference to Case 126 Question 1 deals with a boat-on-boat situation, not finishing or sailing the course.
Angelo's reference to Case 127 deals with a question of clearing the finish line and its marks, not finishing or sailing the course.
Created: 22-Jan-11 20:48
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Angelo Guarino
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Peter .. hitting pin is an interesting twist.  So .. they hit the pin .. and while doing their turns say "oh, crap .. we missed a mark!" . and head back out and fix it :-)

Yea .. I'm not completely convinced on the Orange one either .. it was just an attempt at a consistent application such that Case 127 and 112 both work simultaneously.

Jerry .. your Dick Rose example and the  2013-2016 submission, both have to do with a sailing-the-course error made at the finish-line, which is a different finish exception.  The finish exception we are focused on is "continues to sail the course". 
Created: 22-Jan-11 20:48
Jerry Thompson
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Yes, I'm afraid I became fixated on 28.2.

"continues to sail the course"

Mark Townsend correctly pointed out that continues to sail the course was added to the definition of finish to account for courses that require a boat to pass through the start/finish line multiple times, a mid course start/finish line for example.  I don't know why these marks were not identified as a gate unless on the last leg of the course in the sailing instructions.  The clause, (c) continues to sail the course, was added to the definition of Finish in the 2013-2016 RRS, and has been a point of confusion since.  Submission 251-11 contains the following:
 
“Many race committees set a course that requires boats to sail two or more laps, with the added requirement that they cross the finishing line at the end of each lap. This course is frequently used for informal local races. Technically speaking, under the current definition, the boats “finish” at the end of the first lap, but obviously that is not what is intended when such a course is used. The same issue can arise when other types of courses are used. As Q&A E7 (Q&A 2009-026) shows, there are situations when a boat inadvertently crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark well before she has finished sailing the course. The addition of “continues to sail the course” to the second sentence proposed in Proposal 3 makes it clear that, if such a boat continues to sail the course after crossing the line, she has not finished.”
/////

The clause (c) continues to sail the course was recommended for removal in the current rules as follows:

Submission 139-18.  The following is an excerpt from 139-18:

"Proposal 4

3 Change the definition Finish as follows:

Finish   A boat finishes when, after starting and sailing the course, any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position, crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she

(a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2, or

(b) corrects an error in sailing the course under rule 28.2 made at the line, or

REMOVE (c) continues to sail the course.

Clause (c) in the current definition Finish is deleted. Many readers have never understood that clause. It was introduced in 2013 to permit the use of multiple-lap courses that require boats to cross the finishing line as they begin to sail each new lap. Without clause (c), under current rules, a boat crossing the finishing line at the end of the first lap has ‘finished’ the race. Under Proposal 4, that boat does not ‘finish’ because she has not yet completely sailed the course.

The phrase ‘sail the course’ will appear in italics in each of the many places in the RRS in which it is used. That will specify exactly what that phrase means in each of those places. This will clarify the meaning of each of these rules."
/////

Indeed the draft 2021-2024 Racing Rules of Sailing published by World Sailing, I have a copy, removed the clause (c) continues to sail the course. 

However, Submission 129-19, Definition of Finish, was submitted and the clause was returned:

"The reasoning behind proposal 3 of 138-18 was:
“Clause (c) in the current definition Finish is deleted. Many readers have never understood that clause. It was introduced in 2013 to permit the use of multiple-lap courses that require boats to cross the finishing line as they begin to sail each new lap. Without clause (c), under current rules, a boat crossing the finishing line at the end of the first lap has ‘finished’ the race. Under Proposal 4, that boat does not ‘finish’ because she has not yet completely sailed the course.” And “Under the current rules, if the race committee believes from its observations that a boat has made an error in sailing the course, it is required to score the boat in her finishing position and then protest her for breaking rule 28. If Proposal 4 is accepted, the committee will be permitted to score such a boat ‘ESC, thereby penalizing her without a hearing. However, the rights of the boat are protected because she may request redress if she believes she did sail the course correctly. Because the facts in most such cases will be clear and not contested, there should be a net reduction in the number of hearings.”

This reasoning is flawed in that now, if a boat has not sailed the course, it has not finished. The status of the boat is in limbo. Only be the boat’s action in this case will it be possible to try and ascertain if the boat has retired (stopped racing). This is a harder concept to understand than to determine that a boat has “continued to sail the course”. 

This definition puts an onus on the race committee to monitor each boat to check if it sails the course. This is achievable in high level events but too much to ask for regattas with less staff / volunteers.

If a boat is recorded as finished, it must, by definition, have sailed the course. How can a race committee determine if any boat has finishing without knowing if it sailed the course?

This submission reinstates the clause (c) to the definition of finish. A review of race
officials and sailors in the 12 months since 138-18 has resulted in the large majority
being confused by the circular reasoning that is now in the definition."
/////

I believe best race management practices puts the onus on race committee to monitor and check each boat on a course.  Not a point to point or a distance race, but a four leg windward/leeward course or similar, race committee must monitor and take mark roundings.  Competitors have been known to lose their place on the course (I have experienced this myself as a competitor, long story).  Mark roundings taken by race committee at the windward and leeward marks are essential.  As a race officer, I was glad to have mark rounding data from both windward and leeward mark roundings along with elapsed time data to share with competitors who lost their place on the course.  

How can we score a boat  NSC if we don't monitor to make sure each boat sails the course?


Created: 22-Jan-11 21:41
P
Angelo Guarino
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Jerry re: "How can we score a boat  NSC if we don't monitor to make sure each boat sails the course?"

I tried, but could not find the thread where we discussed ideas surrounding NSC and the sources of information that an RC might based that score upon.  I do recall that Kim K. and John A. were involved in that thread.  Maybe someone recalls the thread and can post a link here.
Created: 22-Jan-12 17:58
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John Allan
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Created: 22-Jan-15 08:05
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Angelo Guarino
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Thar She Blows!  Combined with the thread that spawned’er, don’t think there was a stone unturned. 
Created: 22-Jan-15 13:57
P
John Allan
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I’ve spent a good deal of time trying to justify allowing a boat that has finished to return to the course and correct a rule 28 error that she made before the finishing line.  Regrettably, I haven’t been successful.

The requirement that a boat could not correct a rule 28 error after she had finished was removed from rule 28 in 2005.  It was reinstated in 2013.  Submission 151-11 explains that this was done because it was ‘clearly necessary’ that there be a time after which a boat cannot correct her rule 28 error.

The Submission further explains that the deletion in 2005 was made to solve the problem of finishing lines that were also gates, and boats inadvertently crossing the finishing line while still intending to be sailing the course.  There is no suggestion that it is to remove some illusory unfairness arising from a boat that has already lost substantial time and distance through her rule 28 error being allowed to correct that error.  It was arguably merely from a sense of ‘tidiness’, and to prevent the absurd situation that a race committee, even though all boats had passed through the finising line, might be obliged to remain on station on the finishing line indefinitely, just in case some boat wanted to come back and correct a rule 28 error.

For these reasons, I think that it would be nice if ‘continues to sail the course’ could be interpreted generously in favour of a boat that, having crossed the finishing line, then attempts to return to the course side and correct a rule 28 error.

I think that it would be nice if a boat that tries to correct a rule 28 error was considered to ‘continue to sail the course’ if, after crossing the finishing line, she manoeuvres to return to the course side of the finishing line and correct her rule 28 error without doing anything in consistent with continuing to sail the course, such as engaging her motor (which would break rule 42), picking up a mooring or hauling out (rule 45), person intentionally leaving the boat (rule 46), receiving outside help (rule 41) or leaving the racing area.

However, 

Peter van Muyden
said
Created: Today 20:27

I don't agree that according to the Finish definition [a boat] should [be] scored on her 2nd crossing.   If this is correct, why would the definition of finish contain "(b) corrects an error in sailing the course made at the line, or;"?

I think this puts the the nail in the coffin of my argument.

I now agree that the only correction of a rule 28 error that a boat is permitted to make after finishing is of an error at the finishing line.

If we are looking at a form of words to make this a bit clearer we could say:

A boat that has sailed on every leg of the course (according to the criteria in Case 126) in the order required by the SI is not permitted to correct a rule 28 error other than one made at the finishing line.
Created: 22-Jan-16 23:26
Philip Hubbell
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Absent first-hand proof of 28 violation, a wise RC will record the times of both finishes and report the second.
Created: 22-Jan-17 00:32
P
Angelo Guarino
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John, I think I’ve come to the same conclusion. 

One boat that encounters another boat on the water should be able to apply the RRS and determine a boat’s ‘current status’ in real-time on the water (ROW, limits, room, finished, racing) based upon what a boat did and is doing (not what they do in the future). 

I think the idea that we can somehow  retroactively convert a boats status over some period of time, based upon the actions of the boat after that period of time, is incompatible with the usefulness of the rules.

I agree that the Orange scenario I posted is a stretch at best and probably not a valid example of a boat correcting their sail the course error. That said, at least that approach relied on a test-certain that could be applied on the race course in real-time. That test being, “Had the boat cleared the finish line and influence of marks before they continued to sail the course?”.  

It’s an interesting idea, but probably doesn’t hold water in the end. 
Created: 22-Jan-17 04:26
Mark Evans
Nationality: Canada
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1
hi folks.
Much discussion.
The SI states mark positions.  Start, course and finish.  The SI also states the required direction and order to round those marks.
There are three requirements to receive a score.  
1)  Start.
2)  Sail the course (correctly),  and 
3)  Finish.

The questions are....  

1)  How could she finished if she has not completed the course?
She finishes by complying with the definition "finish".
2)  if the vessel that has not sailed the course, knowingly or unknowingly, intentionally or unintentionally crossed the finish line has she finished?
Yes, if she complies with the definition "finish"
3)  Can the vessel undo the finish crossing and correct any error made?
Only if the error is made while finishing.  i.e. Goes through the wrong way, undoes the error and crosses correctly.

According to previous rulings, if a vessel crosses the finish line in the correct direction, she has finished.
CASE 112 A boat that makes, and does not correct, an error in sailing the course does not break rule 28.1 until she finishes. 
CASE 128 If the race committee observes a boat make an error under rule 28.1 in sailing the course and fail to correct that error, it is required to score her NSC. 
 Under new rule A5, if the race committee observes a boat make an error in sailing the course, it may now score her NSC without a hearing. 

So... I think I have it....
Where a boat starts, she can sail the course. 
To finish, she must start and sail across the finish line. (see definition finish)
Should she not "sail the course" she cannot "undo" if she has the finished.

RRS 28.2 -  If the she goes through the finish, in the correct direction, she has finished and does not have the opportunity to correct any errors in sailing the course therefore in the diagram shown above by Stewart Campbell, titled "Finished or Not 220106.png"  Blue would be scored DSC.
Crappy but I believe this to be true.

Created: 22-Jan-17 05:00
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
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Angelo Guarino
said
Created: Today 04:26
One boat that encounters another boat on the water should be able to apply the RRS and determine a boat’s ‘current status’ in real-time on the water (ROW, limits, room, finished, racing) based upon what a boat did and is doing (not what they do in the future).

I think the idea that we can somehow  retroactively convert a boats status over some period of time, based upon the actions of the boat after that period of time, is incompatible with the usefulness of the rules.

While we obviously want rules to be useful, usefulness is not necessarily a good guide to validity.

Bear in mind we still have the case of a boat finishing, then 'unfinishing' where she takes a penalty at the finishing line.

I agree that the Orange scenario I posted is a stretch at best and probably not a valid example of a boat correcting their sail the course error. That said, at least that approach relied on a test-certain that could be applied on the race course in real-time. That test being, “Had the boat cleared the finish line and influence of marks before they continued to sail the course?”.  

Once we have accepted that correcting an error in sailing the course made at the line is the only exception available, I don't think your orange boat can correct her error as you have shown.

The first time she crosses the finishing line she has complied with parts of the definition of finish, and is NSC.

The language of the definition of racing isn't helpful, because the start point, before 'cleared the finishing line and marks' is that the boat has finished. 

The language I proposed above

A boat that has sailed on every leg of the course (according to the criteria in Case 126) in the order required by the SI is not permitted to correct a rule 28 error other than one made at the finishing line.

While true, doesn't cover the field.  In the orange boat example, the orange boat never sailed on the leg from M3 to the finishing line before crossing the finishing line.

Regrettably, I think we might have to come back to 'crossing the finishing line intending to finish'.

If that condition was in the rule, if a competitor then came back in a redress hearing and said 'I didn't intend to finish at all', so long as they had not done anything inconsistent with continuing to sail the course (motor, mooring, crew leaving etc etc), then Iwould be happy to accept their correction of a rule 28 error. 

Can we construe 'to finish', in rule 28.2 to mean 'intending to finish'?
Created: 22-Jan-17 22:02
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
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John, “Can we construe 'to finish', in rule 28.2 to mean 'intending to finish'?”

That sounds like a contender, but my good friend John A would tell you that a boat’s intent only matters in Rule 2 and Rule 69 ;-)
Created: 22-Jan-17 22:42
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
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I offer a change to the definition of Finish for consideration:
 
Finish    A boat finishes when, after starting, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she
(a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2,
(b) corrects an error in sailing the course made at the line, or
(c) continues to sail the course.
 
Suggested change:
 
Finish    A boat finishes when, after starting, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line, on the last leg of the course or shortened course, from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she
(a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2,
(b) corrects an error in sailing the course made at the line
Created: 22-Jan-17 23:40
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