Forum: Protest Hearing Procedures

Display of Flag Until No Longer Racing

J. Conal (Con) Lancaster
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Club Judge
My question is: if a boat is fouled just outside the zone at the finish mark and "protest" is hailed while in the zone during finishing under spinnaker, what is the interpretation of RRS 61.1 regarding displaying a red flag and "she shall display the flag until she is no longer racing."? Does she display it then can she take it down immediately because she has finished racing? Does the "conspicuously" require more time than until she is no longer racing? I can't find any cases or appeals for protests at the finish line.
Created: 21-May-12 11:01

Comments

P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
2
Interesting question Con.

Remember a boat that has finished is not necessarily finished racing. If it’s a busy DW finish in the zone, a boat isn’t finished racing until they are clear of the line and the marks.  After they are clear of both, if they are flying the spinnaker, it would be prudent to have the flag be the last item put away, after the spinnaker is doused.

There was. 2018 Q&A regarding the hail which states that the purpose of 61.1 (which includes both hail and flag) is to communicate intention to protest. Though the Q&A subject was the hail, 61.1 in total was addressed.
Created: 21-May-12 11:19
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Funny ... what if the incident occurs before the protesting boat’s prep signal, before she [the protesting boat] is racing? 

If the incident is in the racing area, she shall hail and fly the flag until she is finished racing ... but how can she finish racing if she never started racing?  ;-)
Created: 21-May-12 11:57
Craig Evans
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
-3
If the incident happens before her preparatory signal, then the RRS do not apply but the ColRegs do.
Created: 21-May-12 12:32
Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Race Officer
1
There was an incident such as this at an event for which I was a judge in 2017.  The incident occurred right at the finish line and the protestor made the hail, but did not display a flag.  His argument was that since he had already finished, he was not obligated to fly a flag.

We (the jury) disagreed and the protest was declared invalid.  Our decision was subsequently upheld on appeal.

The flag is a key component of the "Informing the Protestee" requirements in 61.1(a).  Even when the boat is beyond hailing distance, the flag requirement is not waived (61.1(a)(1).

RYA Case 1982/7 states, "A signal comprises both a flag (or object of similar appearance) and a sound signal . . .. Unless the sailing instructions state otherwise, sound signals without visual signals have no particular significance under the rules."  While this specifically applies to race signals, an argument could be made that it applies to the Informing the Protestee signal as well. 
Created: 21-May-12 12:35
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Craig .. the preamble of Part 2 includes .. "The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing."
Created: 21-May-12 12:49
J. Conal (Con) Lancaster
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Club Judge
0
Thank you everyone. I knew I could get confirmation from this for Forum. Good info.
Created: 21-May-12 14:31
J. Conal (Con) Lancaster
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Club Judge
0
I still have a dilemma about displaying it long enough for the RC to see it during the additional notification (required by NOR and SI) of intent to protest upon finishing. If it was not observed by the RC during the notification would the protest lack validity?
Created: 21-May-12 14:51
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
re: "...RC to see it during the additional notification (required by NOR and SI) of intent to protest upon finishing."

Rule 61 (and thus 61.1) is not restricted from change by rule 86, therefore the NOR/SI could set a different standard for rule 61 'Protest Requirements', including rule 61.1 'Informing the Protestee'.
Created: 21-May-12 15:48
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
The preamble says rules of Part 2 apply to boats that "are sailing... near the racing area and... HAVE BEEN racing." 
Is this included only to legitimize the excepted occurrence of contact resulting in injury or serious damage?
Regarding the flag question, 61.1 is in Part 5. Thus the display requirement is not governed by Part 2 preamble.  It is terminated upon finishing, not into the "have been racing" period.
Thus Con's original question remains unanswered other than by "good practice" advice.

Created: 21-May-21 19:51
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Let’s try RYA 1996-08 on for size ....

Rule 61.1, Protest Requirements: Informing the ProtesteeRule 62.1(b), RedressRule 63.1, Hearings: Requirement for a hearing

The phrase ‘an incident in the racing area’ covers the period envisaged by the preamble to Part 2 when boats are subject to the racing rules.A protest committee must hear a valid protest, even if there is no prospect of a boat being penalized.A boat that is seeking redress for having been physically damaged by a boat required to keep clear in an incident before she is racing is advised to protest as well as to ask for redress.

QUESTION 1
Does the phrase ‘an incident in the racing area’ in rule 61.1 mean that the requirement to display a red flag applies to a boat that is not racing? Is a boat intending to race, but not yet racing in the defined sense, required to hail and display a protest flag when she wishes to protest?

ANSWER 1
Yes, except that a flag need not be displayed by a boat of hull length less than 6 metres.

QUESTION 2
When there is an incident that occurs after a boat’s preparatory signal, as a result of which she does not start, when may she lower her protest flag?

ANSWER 2
When she takes action to retire, such as by leaving the vicinity of the course.

QUESTION 3
Given that the preamble to Part 2 prevents a boat that is not racing from being penalized in most instances, what point is there in a boat lodging a protest when she is fouled by another when both are intending to race, but neither is racing?

ANSWER 3
A boat that is damaged before the preparatory signal may wish to claim redress under rule 62.1(b) in order to get average points for the race she cannot even start. To get redress she must prove that the other boat was required to keep clear. Since a decision to that effect can only safely be made by a protest committee having heard the evidence of all those involved, it is sensible to lodge a protest as well as seeking redress in order for the other boat to be present at the hearing, since the other boat would not be a party to a request for redress on its own.

QUESTION 4
Given the limitations imposed by the preamble to Part 2, would a protest committee be justified in declining to hear a protest over an incident occurring when neither boat is racing?

ANSWER 4
No. A protest committee must hear a valid protest. Rule 63.1 says so.


Created: 21-May-22 13:24
[You must be signed in to add a comment]
Cookies help us deliver our services. By using our services, you agree to our use of cookies. Learn more