Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Time Limit Expired (TLE)

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Peter van Muyden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
 Time Limit Expired (TLE) is a good way for boats to get some credit for racing even if they didn't finish within the finish window.  I've used it for a few events.  I noticed that World Sailing included in their 2021-2024 sailing instructions template, a TLE instruction.  https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/2021AppendixLG28112020-[26802].pdf

 16.3  The Finishing Window is the time for boats to finish after the first boat sails the course and finishes. Boats failing to finish within the Finishing Window, and not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress, will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing. A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window. This changes RRS 35, A5.1, A5.2 and A10.  

A TLE score is based on the number of boats that finished and with the new rules the finish definition includes the requirement of starting.   A UFD boat that meets the requirements of finishing increases the TLE race score, but a boat that was UFD and OCS doesn't.

The above sailing instruction will force the race committee to maintain two versions for letter scores like BFD, UFD, DSQ,  RDG, RET and DNE.  eg. You can have a UFD score for a boat that meets the definition of finish and start and a version that doesn't meet the definition of start or finish.   The first one affects the TLE points for that race, but the second one doesn't.

It looks like that a simple TLE score could cause a lot more work for the signal and finish boat crews.
Created: 21-Apr-06 02:24

Comments

Paul Miller
Nationality: Sint Maarten (Dutch part)
0
As one of the early adopters of the TLE score 20 years ago, I have since been convinced that it is not such a good idea. Take two scenarios:

1. 'A' is a boat well set up for light wind work, and her crew are exceptionally talented in the discipline required to do well in light conditions. Having established a good but not unbeatable score going into the last two days, the light airs show up, and 'A' finishes while only one other in her class of 20 does. What should have been reflected as a huge score gain is now just two or three points over then entire class.

2. In a small but competitive class, going into the last day of a tight regatta, 'B' notices that if she finishes fewer than four places behind 'C' she will win the regatta. It is a light air day and 'B', lying second in the race sees 'C' well ahead. 'B' now can easily control the boats behind her knowing that if only 'C' finishes she will win the series.

In scenario 1, the award of low scores to non-finishers undermines the success of the winner by failing to reward the advantage that should have been reflected. Scenario 2 is an example of the unintended consequences that completely change the game.

I have seen both of these scenarios play out, and the result has never been satisfactory. I recommend against using this template addition.
Created: 21-Apr-06 03:23
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Leonard S Chin
Nationality: Malaysia
Certifications:
  • International Judge
1
When a big fleet of say 100 is divided into 2 groups for the purpose of selection into a Gold and Silver fleet, TLE has the potential to create havoc in the selection process. 
Scenario: 1st group finishes a race normally with positions 1 to 50. 2nd group in failing winds has only 3 boats finishing and the rest get scored 3plus 2 =5 . You can see the problem.

Created: 21-Apr-06 03:48
Mark Evans
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
One thing that I have seen is the SI that states if one boat finishes by the time limit then the limit is extended a further 1/2 hour.  This allows for the wind lessening as the race progresses.
TLE also encourages vessels to race even in light air.  Any vessel racing should have a series score less then a vessel that does not compete.
Created: 21-Apr-06 03:50
Paul Miller
Nationality: Sint Maarten (Dutch part)
0
I have no idea from where the idea comes that a boat that competes is entitled to a score better than a boat that does not start or does not finish, with the exception of series longer than a regatta, but within a regatta, DNC, DNS, DNF, and DSQ have scored the same for more than 40 years.
Created: 21-Apr-06 04:18
Paul Miller
Nationality: Sint Maarten (Dutch part)
0
Mark, TLE encourages a boat to start in a light air race. After that it encourages them to go back to their mooring.
Created: 21-Apr-06 04:22
Jean Bernard Luther
Nationality: Switzerland
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • National Judge
  • National Race Officer
0
I really understand the issue with split fleets. Therefore I think that TLE is not a good solution in that situation. But for small single fleet, this is right , TLE encourages boat to start and do all the possible to finish.
 
Regarding UFD OCS etc, these boats do not comply with the Starting definition. So they did not comply with Finish as well
Created: 21-Apr-06 07:32
Dusan Vanicky
Nationality: Slovakia
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
  • National Race Officer
0
I think about a possible conflict of the APP LG 16.3 with some other rules.
At one hand, RRS 90.3 allows to change the APP A scoring system by NoR or SI, but at the other hand,  APP J 1.3(5) - (which I miss on the "RRS.org" !!!) ,  prescribes, that a change of APP A scoring system has to be described in NoR. Furthermore, J1.3 (1)), prescribes, that the change of the rule in NoR (which changes the UFD scoring), has to include also that "it changes RRS 30.3."
Therefore I ask , if a SI item with the "LG 16.3"  can be considered as an invalid change of 30.3 and therefore - once a boat is UFD, it has to get the points equal to DSQ? 
Created: 21-Apr-06 09:22
Robin Gray
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • International Race Officer
  • National Race Officer
0
In GBR and IRL I have not seen the TLE score used, however we do use the "Whiskey Flag" routine particularly with junior clases and classes that have a wide range of abilities where the good kids will finish after Mark 3 but the backmarkers have not yet got to Mark 1.  Typically the SI wording would be: 
“16.2 In addition to RRS 32, the race committee may also award a finishing score to a boat that is still racing by displaying to her from a committee vessel (which may be in motion) flag W with one sound signal. A boat so notified is no longer required to sail the course, shall stop racing and shall return to the starting area, or return ashore if there is no more racing.  A finishing score under this sailing instruction will be the score she would have received had she sailed the course and finished within any time limit, without gaining or losing any place.  However, when two or more boats that are overlapped are notified, they will be scored as if they were tied.  The decision by the race committee to use this procedure or not to use it shall not be grounds for requesting redress. This changes rules 60.1(b) and 62.1(a).”
It is always under the orders and control of the Race Officer and usually performed by the Mark 1 marklaying boat.  It gets the races turned around quickly and gives the newbies at the back at least a score for their efforts.
Created: 21-Apr-06 11:18
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
I think TLE has a use for events longer than a regatta, for instance season-long Wed Nights etc. 

In this instance a boat that does come out and race can justifiably receive a score better than DNS.   This tends to keep participation up when winds are iffy. 

What I keep an eye out for with TLE (we had a past thread on this) is that boats who do not believe they can finish within the TL often call to the RC to “retire” and head to the bar.  

We don’t have a set vernacular to call in to the RC with the effect that “I’ll never make it”.   In the previous thread, it was suggested that RC’s query the competitors who use the term “retire” to determine if this was due to their breaking a rule or that they will be TLE.  

When TLE does exist, it’s probably worthwhile for the RC to determine how they will handle such TLE radio-calls from competitors. 
Created: 21-Apr-06 12:18
Kirsteen Donaldson
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
0
It seems that many of the issues raised above (the issues with UFD; encouraging boats to start and go to the bar in light airs; the small difference between finishing and TLE) are due to the method of scoring TLE (finishers + 1), and not to the principle.  An alternative system used previously in the Solent was to award TLE scores only to boats that are still racing at the expiry of the time limit and call the RC to notify them that they are still racing. Boats that have already given up and gone home are scored DNF in the usual way. The TLE score was the average of the scores available to the boats that were still racing. So, for example, in a fleet of 30 starters, 11 boats finish within the time limit; 9 are still racing; and 10 have gone home. The TLE score is the average of 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 = 16 points.  To my mind, if there is a time-limit, the principal of scoring TLEs is a reasonable approach to recognising that the boats affected could have finished but for the imposition of an arbitrary time limit.  

As Angelo said, the topic was discussed in a previous thread (https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/153-scoring-tle).  My thoughts then still apply: 
  • Why have a time limit at all? I accept the need for one if it is intended to run a second race or if safety boat cover is provided. However, for many races, certainly for self-sufficient boats, neither applies. There are many reasons for wanting to finish a race other than winning it, eg gaining series points; using the qualifying miles for another event; sense of achievement for a long race or a first attempt at a higher race level. If a boat wants to stay out till a week next Tues, why shouldn't they! The RC doesn't have to stay out to wait (self-timed finishes, verifiable to some extent by AIS, are widely used, certainly further down the pecking order), and if the boat chooses to finish the race in place of getting to the prize giving, that's her choice. 
  • Is it a fair time limit? For handicap fleets, it needs to be long enough to cover the handicap spread plus a bit. One proposal that I've not seen done is to trigger the start of the time limit based on perhaps the 3rd boat to finish plus x minutes (in place of 1st boat plus x minutes), so if a single boat gets a flier eg makes a tidal gate that others miss, or gets over the line just before the wind dies and the rest of the fleet wait for it to fill in (we've all seen it) the race isn't lost for the rest of the fleet. I accept the third boat is still an arbitrary choice, just seems more robust to me, and at least then all the podium places are filled (though not necessarily fairly in a handicap fleet).
  • Do the competitors know what the time limit is? Unless the time limit is a fixed time eg 2 hours, 1400, or local sunset, there must be a way of calculating it on the water and notifying competitors - VHF is usual here. However, one local club defines the time limit as "x minutes (corrected) after the first boat in her class finishes". Even after you work out what that is intended to mean, it requires that the RC calculates on the water the corrected time difference between the lowest rated boat and the first boat to finish - in principle this is possible but in practice even the RC doesn't know what the time limit is, let alone the competitors. 
Created: 21-Apr-06 14:03
Leo Reise
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
LTE - I do not generally comment in this forum however for this I will make an exception.  I will state upfront that I am not a fan of LTE - for  number of reasons. My first experience was a number of years ago with 105 boats in the fleet.  I made a comment on the SIs before the event that this could produce a number of problems but was assured by the PRO that it was tried an true.  During the event, one race had only 60 boats finish.  That meant for the other 45 boats, for the majority of them, this would be the best score they received during the entire event, and they did not complete the race. (BTW this was worlds)
In another worlds, same scenario, smaller fleet, but less than 1/2 the boats finished!  That was a little difference because in order to get the TLE score a boat had to sail to the finish line. (Never understood that one.)  

I had a number of questions for the PRO & OA. 
Did any of the boats just quit sailing and have lunch but stayed on the race course?
Was there a difference in score for the boat that broke something and left the race course? Yes DNF
Should TLE be counted in an average point calculation for redress? Obvious answer is NO but what do you use, DNF its place or just not consider the TLE score at all?
A LTE negates the last sentence in 32.1 in that the RC has already considered the consequences with TLE in the SIs.
Can ties be broken using TLE as part of the score? Maybe this does not matter.

Instead of a TLE, one race officer I know used "On Course Finish" where the RC sent a skiff up the course and assigned finishing positions.  (BTW non redressible because the RC made their score better than a DNF and therefore not in conflict with 62.1)

I understand that this might be quite unfair to the RCs of this world that are trying to do something to assist the sport.  I get it. I volunteer as well.  What it does point out is that the best of intentions also have some unintended consequences.

  



Created: 21-Apr-06 19:50
Andrew Alberti
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
 Peter,
Putting aside the whole issue of whether awarding TLE scores is a good or a bad thing, I think you raise a very interesting point about how to score them given that SI.  I don't think it is quite a bad as you suggest.  It is not based on the total number of finishers (which is confused by UFD boats that finish (because they started) and UFD boats that don't finish (because they never started).  It is based on the "A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window. " Assuming that the last boat that finishes started correctly this score already excludes all of the UFD boats. 
Where it gets really messy is that if the last boat that finishes was actually UFD but finished, then technically all of these TLE boats would be UFD +1.  That is clearly not intended.  To implement this the race committee would have to look at the last boat that finished, see if they were UFD, then determine from the start records whether that boat ever actually started (so for example they were on course side with 30 seconds to go but returned and started).  If this is true, use them (UFD +1), if not, go to the next last boat to finish and repeat.  In practical terms I believe that the race committee would (and should) use the last boat to be scored as finishing.  
Maybe we need to tamper with the wording of that instruction to get the desired result (which is that no boats that were disqualified for any reason (BFD, UFD, DSQ, OCS) should count.   Something like "the score for the last boat to be scored as finishing + 1 (or 2)"


Created: 21-Apr-07 01:29
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Peter, thinking a bit more about your OP’s main point ...

“The above sailing instruction will force the race committee to maintain two versions for letter scores like BFD, UFD, DSQ,  RDG, RET and DNE.  eg. ”

Again, thinking about series longer than a regatta (where I like TLE) and thus the revised A5.3 is referenced in the SI’s, would the above issue you raised be resolved by aligning the TLE scoring language with that of A5.3, and use “number of boats that came to the starting area” instead of “finishers”?

Ang
Created: 21-Apr-07 12:23
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Peter van Muyden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
Hi Andrew,

Yes, the discussion was hijacked with respect to how fair TLE is, but that is fine with me.  I think that this forum is one of the better methods to communicate with officials.  Thank you Paul for making this happen.

I personally feel that it's not fair to have time limits in time corrected races.  In these races the time limits should be normalized based on the ratings of the boats.  However, this is a complex solution.  

I recall a while ago I ran the King of the Derwent race in Hobart which was a few days after the Sydney-Hobart race.  The race was scheduled to be about 2 hours long.   A lot of boats entered, including one of the top Sydney-Hobart finishers and many local boats of which some with slow ratings.  I recall that the finish window was about 30 minutes.  As you can imagine, quite a few boats didn't finish within the finish window.

I disagree with your statement "Assuming that the last boat that finishes started correctly this score already excludes all of the UFD boats."    In theory UFD could cross the finish line first after meeting the definition of starting and finishing, but this boat will get a UFD penalty and it will even trigger the start of the time limit.  This boat would have to be still included in the number of finishers and this affect the TLE points.

You still need to check boats that scored  BFD, UFD, DSQ,  RDG, RET and DNE if they started / finished. This is not needed when you don't have a TLE sailing instruction.

Look at the example below.
In the left scenario the UFD didn't meet the requirements of start or finish which means that the TLE boat gets 4 + 2 = 6 points.     In the right scenario the TLE boat like  gets 5 + 2 = 7 points. 


For scoring systems to calculate a TLE score correctly,  BFD, UFD, DSQ,  RDG, RET and DNE scored boats need to be flagged if they finished/started or not.  

One solution to lessen the problem that I identified would be to change in the World Sailing instruction finished to crossed the finishing line from the course side
 16.3  The Finishing Window is the time for boats to finish after the first boat sails the course and finishes. Boats failing to finish within the Finishing Window, and not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress, will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing. A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window. This changes RRS 35, A5.1, A5.2 and A10.
to
 16.3  The Finishing Window is the time for boats to finish after the first boat sails the course and finishes. Boats failing to finish within the Finishing Window, and not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress, will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing. A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that crossed the finishing line from the course side within the Finishing Window. This changes RRS 35, A5.1, A5.2 and A10.

Peter
Created: 21-Apr-07 13:47
Andrew Alberti
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Hi Peter,
For some reason I am not seeing the graphic for your example so I can't comment.  The sailing instructions you gave in your original post did not say that the TLE was based on number of finishers.  It said that it was based on the score of the last finisher.  If the first boat to finish was UFD it doesn't matter if they started/finished or not their score would not be included in the score of the last finisher.  Simple example:
Order of crossing finishing line
UFD boat that started and finished
UFD boat that did not start therefore didn't finish
boat 3
boat 4
boat 5
-----------------Time limit
boat 6
boat 7
Boat 3 would score 1, Boat 4 would score 2, Boat 5 would score 3 boat 6&7 would score 5 

The problem comes if the last boat to finish has a letter score. 

Created: 21-Apr-07 14:00
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Peter van Muyden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
Hi Andrew,

Now I see your position which is correct.    The last boat letter score that finished is still an issue and I'm not sure how to resolve that.   Maybe it's best not to use TLE.



Created: 21-Apr-07 14:48
Andrew Alberti
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
There is good and bad about TLE.  Much of that is covered in other posts above.  I happen to like it.
Either way I would hope that the unusual case of the last boat that finishes having a letter score should not be the reason for not using it.  We just need a creative way of saying that it is based on the last boat to be scored finishing without a letter score.  That is I think what most people think it means is already.  Nobody thinks of the TLE score as being DSQ+1 if the last boat to finish happens to be DSQ even if the current wording might correctly be interpretted that way.  
Created: 21-Apr-07 14:55
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Peter and Andrew ... what about my suggestion of using A5.3's  “number of boats that came to the starting area” instead of “finishers”?  Does this remove some of the issues? - Ang
Created: 21-Apr-07 14:59
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Peter van Muyden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
Angelo,  rather than using “number of boats that came to the starting area” instead of “finishers”  it might be better to use “number of boats that crossed the finish line from the course side"  instead of “finishers”  The latter will be less than the number of boats that came to the starting area which is better.


Created: 21-Apr-07 15:09
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
I'm not familiar with the genesis or history of "number of boats that came to the starting area”  ... but I'm guessing that it's a way to catch all boats that the RC has a record of regardless of sailing errors?  

It would seem to catch'em all ... 
  1. A boat starts, but doesn't finish .. 
  2. finishes, but had a starting error, 
  3. a boat that started, crossed the finish-line, but has a sail-the-course error.
Created: 21-Apr-07 15:16
Mark Evans
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
Folks you are missing the main point. TLE
TLE is only useful in scoring a race in a series.
If the SI stipulates a time limit, the boats that started should be given a score better in that race than those who DNC, DNS, OCS, RET, DSQ, etc.
Boats that leave the course area (which needs to be defined) without first retiring, are not scored a TLE.
TLE score relates to the number of boats that do not finish that race and are still in the course area at the time limit.
Prior to the time limit, a boat is scored when they complete the course and finish.  A boat scored TLE came to and starred the race IAW the SI and should be awarded a score better than those who did not.
Example

TLE - (number of boats in the race that finished + 1)
DNC -  ( number of boats in the series + 1)
DSQ - ( number of boats in series + 2)
Created: 21-Apr-07 16:04
Andrew Alberti
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Hi Mark,
I don't think I am missing the point of TLE.  I do recognize that it is designed to give a better score than other letter scores (DNC, DNS, OCS etc) to boats that stay on the course and miss the time limit.

The problem that Peter was originally asking about is that "number of boats in the race that finished + 1" (or +2) is more difficult to figure out than people think.  If there is a U flag at the start and a boat is on course side 30 seconds before the start but returns to the prestart side of the line (probably before the signal) and starts after the signal and sails the course and crosses the finish line, they "finished" according to the definition even though they are scored as UFD. Another boats who has its bow over the line when the signal goes and sails the course and crosses the finishing line does not "finish" since they never "started".  They are also UFD.  If the scoring was actually based on "number of boats that finished" on of those boats would count, the other would not.  Most race committees do not track two different groups of boats UFD who started/finished and UFD who didn't start/finish.

Second problem the wording in the SI that Peter quoted says "shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window."   If the last boat that finished within the finishing window is subsequently disqualified (maybe for hitting a mark, or for a port / starboard  or any other reason) then their score would be DSQ and the boats that were scored TLE would be scored DSQ + 1 (or 2).  This is not at all the point of TLE.  I would suggest that what is wanted is to give them a score that is the highest non letter score + 1 or 2 but I don't quite know how to phrase that.  

I do not suggest using words like "number of boats that came to the starting area" since that does defeat the point of the TLE.  
Created: 21-Apr-11 20:10
Mark Evans
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
First.  TLE is only applicable to a series.  That is my main point.
Secondly, the program that we use is called sailwave.  It will score temporary results while waiting for a protest hearing or redress.
Any boat that is UFD, DSQ, DNF etc. Sailwave will score according to the code entered applicable to the number of boats in the series. A TLE can be programmed to score according to the number of boats that finished.  (Finished being that they properly complete the course within the time frame.
A UFD boat is entered as UFD, therefore the program recognizes it as such and gives it a score applicable to the penalty.  Number of boats in series + 1 or 2 or whatever the SIs states.
Results are published with the caveat subject to redress and protests completions.
We find that TLE is useful on  a January drizzly day to reward people for showing up and fighting to the end.  Boats that leave the race area without completing are scored DNF which is a score applicable to the series. Number of boats in the series + 1.
Wording in the SI is for TLE is ...
Number of boats that finish + 1.
Created: 21-Apr-12 00:39
Andrew Alberti
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Hi Mark,
I am aware that this can be done in Sailwave.  Peter (the original poster) teaches courses in the use of Sailwave so I am sure that he knows as well.  The fact that Sailwave generates the score, does not mean that the score is correct.  The Racing Rules of Sailing have a definition of finish which defines who finishes and who doesn't.  Sailwave doesn't know who finishes and who doesn't, if nobody tells it.  Under the current definition of finishing we appear to have two types of UFD boats, some that finish and some that don't.  I am not sure that this was intended, but it appears to be what the wording says.  Unless we get an accurate count of boats that "finish" that meets the definition in the rulebook, Sailwave (or any other scoring system) will not be able to give the correct results.  

Created: 21-Apr-12 01:30
Mark Evans
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
If a boat is scored UFD.  It is the same as a DSQ...
It did not finish.
If a boat is over early and did not come back and start, it is scored DNS.
If a boat is disqualified for various reasons it is scored appropriately as would a TLE.
Sailwave will calculate the scores of boats that have been entered with a time.
Sailwave will also calculate a boats score were a code has been entered in lieu of a time.
A boat only gets a time entered if it "finishes".
It gets a code for everything else.
From that, it generates a score.
It is pretty cool software.  Good job on that for the designers.
And.... It's free for small non profit organizations.
Created: 21-Apr-12 02:04
Paul Miller
Nationality: Sint Maarten (Dutch part)
0
If you just want to fix the wording, here is how to do it:

The Finishing Window is the time for boats to finish after the first boat sails the
J2.2(18)
course and finishes. Boats failing to finish within the Finishing Window, and not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress, will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing. A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window. This changes RRS 35, A5.1, A5.2 and A10.
Created: 21-Apr-12 02:12
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Peter van Muyden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
Paul,

That doesn't fix the problem which is based on the definition of finish.  Below is the definition of finish and the definition of start because the term starting is used in the definition of finish.

 Finish A boat finishes when, after starting, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she
(a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2,
(b) corrects an error in sailing the course made at the line, or
(c) continues to sail the course.

Start A boat starts when, her hull having been entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal, and having complied with rule 30.1 if it applies, any part of her hull crosses the starting line from the pre-start side to the course side. 

As long as a boat meets the above two definitions she is considered to be finished.   As I stated before many letter scores can both meet or not meet the above definitions.  Previous we used UFD as an example, but I'll use DNE for this example.
Boat A DNE
  1. Boat A's sailnumber was displayed as per RRS 30.4
  2. At the restart and at the starting signal of the race. boat A was on the course side of the start line.
  3. Boat A's hull was never entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal
  4. As per RRS 30.4 boat A was scored DNE
Boat B DNE
  1. Boat B started the race as per the definition
  2. Boat B receives a RRS 42  Appendix P2.3 penalty just after she finished.
  3. As per Appendix 2.4 Boat B was scored DNE

Both boats are DNE.   Boat A didn't start and therefore didn't finish (per the definitions), but Boat B met both definitions and has finished

Under the suggested instruction, if boat B was the last boat to finish within the finish window, all TLE boats would get one or two more points than a DNE score which is clearly not intended.  

Computer systems are GIGO (garbage in garbage out) and just because you enter DNE that doesn't tell the system to consider the boat to be a finisher or not.

Created: 21-Apr-12 03:17
Mark Evans
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
DNE, DNF, DSQ etc. do not generate a number used in the calculation of a TLE.  TLE is strictly based on the boats that did finish.
Created: 21-Apr-12 03:58
Paul Miller
Nationality: Sint Maarten (Dutch part)
0
Peter, with my small amendment, the TLE is scored for the position one more than the last boat to finish. Not the score of the last boat, but the position.
Created: 21-Apr-12 10:33
Leo Reise
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
I commented earlier in this series about unintended consequences when LTE is introduced.  The number of different responses and viewpoints in answer to the original post, only proves the point.  So, if you are going to use it in your SIs, ensure that you define carefully LTE so it covers all the possible scenarios - and does not leave a boat disadvantaged because of a poorly written instruction. 
Created: 21-Apr-12 17:51
P
Peter van Muyden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
Yesterday, I contacted the chair of the World Sailing Racing Rules Committee (RRC) and explained the issue with the current Appendix LG TLE wording.  https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/2021AppendixLG28112020-[26802].pdf   The chair agreed with me that there is an issue and told me that the RRC will create a submission for the November World Sailing meetings to fix this.   It's expected that this will be corrected in the new 2025-2028 rules, but since Appendix LG is online it might be sooner.
Created: 21-Apr-12 18:30
Mark Evans
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
Excellent news.
Well done.
Created: 21-Apr-12 19:13
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