Well done! Thank you!

Hi there, and thanks very much for this. I've started going through the slide show and need clarification on a point. I sail a small trimaran called a Weta. It is 4.4m long (hull only) and 5.4m with the bowsprit. The bowsprit carries a permanently hoisted (with furler) spinnaker. I'd like to know if the bowsprit counts on the start line, overlaps, mark roundings and the finish. Cheers

Stephen,

Let's start with the Weta Class Rules.  Here is what it has for bowsprit: 
16 Bowsprit
a) The bowsprit is a carbon tube, provided by the manufacturer.
b) The bowsprit is positioned along the central longitudinal axis of the main hull, extending from the bow.
c) The position, extension, and angle of the bowsprit is fixed. Any modification is prohibited.
d) The bowsprit must remain in its designed socket with a maximum extension of 1150mm from the bow.

Next we have a look at the Equipment Rules of Sailing published by World Sailing found here https://www.sailing.org/documents/equipmentrules/index.php
Look at pages 14-18 which defines hull and sprit.

Finally, Q&A 2021.002
4 January 2021
Meaning of ‘hull’ in the Racing Rules of Sailing
Situation
The term ‘hull’ is mentioned in several places in the Racing Rules of Sailing.
Question 1
What is the applicable definition of ‘hull’?
Answer 1
The term ‘hull’ is not defined in the Racing Rules of Sailing, therefore, under the introduction/terminology which prescribes that other words are used in the sense ordinarily understood in the nautical or general use, the definition in The Equipment Rules of Sailing for 2021-2024 is appropriate:
D.1.1 Hull
The hull shell including any transom, the deck including any superstructure, the internal structure including any cockpit, the fittings associated with these parts and any corrector weights.
Question 2
Are bowsprits, fixed or retractable, part of the hull?
Answer 2
No. See answer 1.
The Equipment Rules of Sailing rule F.1.4(c)(i), defines bowsprits as hull spars. The Equipment Rules of Sailing rule F1.4(c), defines hull spars as spars attached to the hull. The Equipment Rules of Sailing definition of hull excludes hull spars, therefore bowsprits, whether fixed or retractable, are not part of the hull. World Sailing Q

My opinion is your bowsprit is not part of your hull.

Thanks,  
Jerry

Great presentation! Thanks.
 1. Query the notes on proper course.
The definition says "...finish as soon as possible..". Note that it does not say "..finish with as high a placing as possible.."
The note at the bottom of the slide about 17 says " If a leeward boat subject to rule 17 wants to sail higher to avoid or gain a tactical advantage over some other boat then it’s her proper course"
Are you sure the note is correct? I suspect that most manouevres designed to gain advantage over another (particular) boat actually increase the time it takes to sail the course and are designed to improve or protect placing or relative placing, not to reduce elapsed time. 
2 Rule 16.2 notes
There was a recent posting about 16.2 (although the title refers to 16.1 (https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/828-rrs-16-1-before-start)) and whether 16.2 can apply before the start. That seemed to turn on whether a boat could be on a "beat to windward" before the start.
Are you sure that the limitation of 16.2 to after the start as per the notes is correct?
Thanks again. 

There is a World Sailing Q&A regarding the meaning of hull that is worth reading.

Q&A 2021.002 Meaning of ‘hull’ in the Racing Rules of Sailing - https://www.sailing.org/90672.php

Question 1
What is the applicable definition of ‘hull’?
Answer 1
The term ‘hull’ is not defined in the Racing Rules of Sailing, therefore, under the introduction/terminology which prescribes that other words are used in the sense ordinarily understood in the nautical or general use, the definition in The Equipment Rules of Sailing for 2021- 2024 is appropriate: D.1.1 Hull The hull shell including any transom, the deck including any superstructure, the internal structure including any cockpit, the fittings associated with these parts and any corrector weights.

Question 2
Are bowsprits, fixed or retractable, part of the hull?
Answer 2
No. See answer 1. The Equipment Rules of Sailing rule F.1.4(c)(i), defines bowsprits as hull spars. The Equipment Rules of Sailing rule F1.4(c), defines hull spars as spars attached to the hull. The Equipment Rules of Sailing definition of hull excludes hull spars, therefore bowsprits, whether fixed or retractable, are not part of the hull.

Question 3
Are the wings of a skiff, fixed or retractable, part of the hull?
Answer 3
Yes. Neither the Equipment Rules of Sailing nor the Racing Rules of Sailing define whether or not the wings of a skiff are part of a boat’s hull. Unless the class rules define wings otherwise, the wings are considered to be an extension of the deck and therefore part of a boat’s hull. 

Thank Paul. 

Question 1 - remove the other boat, windward, to determine leeward's proper course.  Another scenario, in light air you see a puff coming, remove the windward boat, would you sail to the puff to gain the wind if you expected it to get you to the finish line quicker?

Question - 16.2 is the no hunting rule in sailor speak.  Before the start there is plenty of hunting going on and it is not against the rules.  Imagine running the line on starboard causing port tackers to change course well below 90 degrees off the wind.  We all do it because it is allowed as we are not on a beat to windward until we start.  16.1 is always on while racing and even before if you are in the race area, however you don't have to take a penalty for breaking it unless you are racing (prep up to finish).

Thanks,

Jerry

Getting back to bowsprit and the spinnaker - so I understand that the bowsprit isn't considered at the start, the size of the zone or the finish, but comes into play only when establishing an overlap (hull and equipment). This does make it rather difficult for downwind starts and finishes particularly when large asymmetrics obscure the bow of boats behind. Also makes it complicated for boats like 18' skiffs (that almost double their length with a bowsprit) to ascertain how large the zone is.

Jerry Great Presentation.
Thank you for allowing unrestricted usage for training. 
Will revert for further interaction on this.
Well Done Jerry !

Thank you for for the files; that is a lot of work and they look very good.

 I will certainly use them as a reference when making up my own presentations.

Thank you, thank you! I was just looking into making up my slides for this set of rules, the hardest part is just getting started and you gave us all a heck of a jump start!

RRS 16.2 not apply before the start??????

In the 2021-2024 Case Book, Case 132 specifically states that boats are on a beat to windward "after their starting signal." It removes the use of "proper course" that was introduced in a 2018 supplement to the 2017-2020 Case Book and reverts to "the course each of them would sail in order to sail the course and finish as soon as possible..."

This interpretation is to be used to determine when rule 16.2 applies and when rule 18 does not apply (per 18.1(a)).

I see Paul's point about proper course. Sometimes a boat may sail more slowly or sail extra distance for tactical considerations in order to place higher. Covering a competing boat for example - you might sail extra distance/time just to make sure you stay ahead of them. Is that still your proper course?

Thanks Tim. 

I would say that sailing further to cover is not within proper course if it means a longer elapsed time. I would distinguish that from sailing higher to get into a line of stronger breeze to finish earlier.

Case 132 has been revised for the new case book. The wording is different in Case books 2013-16 and 2017-20. I personally think that taking out words from the rule "after the starting signal" and then effectively putting them back in by changed wording in a case is bad form. It is quite clear that boats not racing can be on a beat to windward. Ordinary usage of on a beat to windward without regard to case 32 is understood by some to apply to a boat sailing close hauled before the starts as evidenced by the debate in the recent 16.1 post. Ordinary principles of legal interpretation would say that if removing" after the starting signal" from the wording would mean that it could apply before the starting signal.

I accept however that protest committees and appeals will be guided by restated Case 132 in the 21-24 book when the new rules apply. I would think it unlikely that any protest committee would now knowingly and specifically find that case 32 is not relevant pre-start on the basis of the removal of that limitation in the wording of the rule 16.2. All this could have been avoided if they had left the limitation in RRS 16.2.

Paul, agree with you.

But let me add:

1)  The fact of knowing that the wording "after the start" has been removed is not THE point. The point is that today, there no such limitation to that rule.

2) Rule Book is ""Rules", Case Book is not. Authoritative, yes, but not rule. So, strictly legally speaking, for what i know, Rule Book prevails. 

3)  "beat to windward"  means "going upwind"; if rules needs to make that to include other concepts like "after the start", it became a  "Definition", and anyway should appear in the Rule Book, not in a separate Book such as the Case Book. Why make life more difficult for sailors?

Maybe using "windward leg" would have been clearer, it that is the intention. Maybe.

Meantime, if i were to get a protest for a break of that rule during the pre start, i'd be quite embarrassed.  Because the Book says it is valid, whatever was the intention of the writers.

Looking at the submission that led to the change to 16.2, it sounds like the feeling was that applying 16.2 on all points of sail was problematic and the drafters felt it was better applied only on a beat to windward. And if the Case 132 interpretation is that boats are only on a beat to windward after their starting signal then including "after her starting signal" in the rule is redundant.

Note also that by the interpretation of Case 132 a boat could find herself on a beat to windward on a downwind or reaching leg if, for example, due to a wind shift, current or navigation error she finds herself below the leeward mark. In that case her course to round the leeward mark would be close-hauled or above. This was stated explicitly in a previous version of Case 132 and I think it's implied by the last sentence of condition 2 in the current version.

Jerry,
Thanks for the 2021 update to the Racing Rules seminar.  I am using parts of it for a Rules Changes talk next week that three of us are leading.
And congratulations on recently becoming a NJ.

Wayne

Jerry, are you familiar with the RS800? It is a skiff with racks which are adjustable depending on crew weight and leverage. As such the wings on one boat can be 60cm wider than another. With this in mind does your opinion on the definition of the hull change? 

To Derek Buchanan:

I would suggest that as long as it’s within the class rules and applied properly in regards to the weight of the sailor then the hull definition is still applicable 

I'm not sure it is within the gift of the class to change the definitions - is it?

Derek,  Q&A 2021.002, updated February 16, 2021, Question 3 addresses your question.  I understand that the Q&As are not authoritative like a World Sailing Case, but they do carry weight.

Question 3
Are the wings of a skiff, fixed or retractable, part of the hull?
Answer 3
Yes, unless otherwise defined in the class, rating or empirical handicap rules.