Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Racing Alongside a Continuing Obstruction - Part 2

P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
This is a continuation of a thread started by forum member Andrew Lesslie.  The original thread can be found here: Club race scenario, racing alongside a continuing obstruction

During that thread, Tim Hoffman offered a comparative scenario that we didn't really discuss.  What I have done below, is put both scenarios into one drawing so that the rule application differences can be examined more easily.

For all scenarios, assume that the proper course for all boats is to continue along the continuing obstruction.

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Scenario #1: (quick summary from other thread)
  1. Freeze Blue just before #3 (the point at which Green overlaps Blue), there IS NOT enough space for both Green and Yellow to progress forward in their relative positions
  2. 19.3(c) applies and Green is not entitled to 19.2(b) room from Blue between Blue and the CO. 
  3. Green must keep clear of Blue and rules 10 and 11 do not apply
  4. Conclusion: Green, a boat which became overlapped from clear astern between Blue and a continuing obstruction while Green was not entitled to room under 19.2(b), failed to keep clear of Blue and broke rule 19.2(c).

Scenario #2: (Tim's scenario variation - NOTE: Assume at position #3, Green gains outside overlap with Yellow prior to contact with Blue)
  1. Freeze Blue at #2 (the point at which Green overlaps Blue) there IS enough space for both Green and Yellow to progress forward in their relative positions
  2. 19.3(c) does not apply and Green is entitled to 19.2(b) room from Blue between Blue and the CO. 
  3. Green's room includes room for her to comply with Green's obligations under Part 2, which includes: 
    1. Green keeping clear of Yellow until just before #3, under rule 12
    2. Green giving Yellow 19.2(b) room between Green and the CO after Green becomes outside overlapped with Yellow at #3.
  4. Conclusion:  Blue, the outside boat at an obstruction, failed to give Green room to pass the obstruction, despite being able to do so since the overlap began, and broke RRS 19.2(b) 

First let me know if anyone disagrees with those conclusions (understanding that other conclusions might apply and accompany a formal decision). 

However, what about Scenario #3 below?

Scenario #3: Green makes contact with Blue before overlapping Yellow

Questions:
  1. Between position 2 and 3, does the space Blue is providing Green satisfy Blue's requirements under 19.2(b)?
  2. Does Green have any obligation to slow her boat to stay in that room?


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PS:  There wasn't suggested wording for a Rule 19.2(c) conclusion, so I created a couple below.  What do you think of .. ?

Rev 1:
[Inside Boat], a boat which became overlapped from clear astern between [Outside Boat] and a continuing obstruction while [Inside Boat] was not entitled to room under 19.2(b), failed to keep clear of [Outside Boat] and broke rule 19.2(c).

Rev 2:
[Inside Boat], a boat which became overlapped from clear astern between [Outside Boat] and a continuing obstruction, where [Inside Boat] was not entitled to room under 19.2(b) due to the lack of room for [Inside Boat] to pass between them at the moment the overlap began, failed to keep clear of [Outside Boat] and broke rule 19.2(c).

Rev 3:
While passing a continuing obstruction, [Inside Boat], a boat which became overlapped from clear astern between [Outside Boat] and a continuing obstruction, where [Inside Boat] was not entitled to room under 19.2(b) due to the lack of room for [Inside Boat] to pass between them at the moment the overlap began, failed to keep clear of [Outside Boat] and broke rule 19.2(c).
Created: 20-Mar-03 17:12

Comments

John Thorne
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
It seems to me that 19.2(c) applies in each scenario, requiring Green to keep clear.
Created: 20-Mar-03 19:50
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
In Scenario 2, as I posted:, Ang's conclusion:
Conclusion:  Blue, the outside boat at an obstruction, failed to give Green room to pass the obstruction, despite being able to do so since the overlap began, and broke RRS 19.2(b) 

When I originally posted the scenario that conclusion is what I had in mind at position 3. But then I started thinking - is G really entitled to room from B to bear away and pass to the outside of Y? 

Y is not an obstruction to G and B since B is not required to keep clear of her, so 19.2(b) only applies between G and B with respect to the boundary line. G is clear astern of Y and required to keep clear of her.

Could not G, promptly and in a seamanlike way, slow down so as to avoid contact with Y's transom and keep clear of B within the room that B has already provided?

My current thinking is that G is not entitled to "passing room", and by bearing away G has failed to keep clear of B as required by rule 11.
Created: 20-Mar-03 20:37
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Tim .. 
Y is not an obstruction to G and B since B is not required to keep clear of her, so 19.2(b) only applies between G and B with respect to the boundary line. G is clear astern of Y and required to keep clear of her.

I tried to make it clear, but in Scenario 2 at position 3, Green's overlap with Yellow occurs prior to contact with Blue.  IMO, Green's 19.2(b) room from Blue includes her obligations under Part 2 and that starts uninterrupted from just before position 2.  

Green's Part 2 obligations include giving Yellow room between Green and the obstruction under 19.2(b) as soon as Green becomes overlapped outside Yellow.  Based on that, I think that is part of the room that Blue must give Green.

Could not G, promptly and in a seamanlike way, slow down so as to avoid contact with Y's transom and keep clear of B within the room that B has already provided?

That's the question I attempted to isolate and examine in Scenario 3.  In Scenario 2, I think as long as Green can establish the overlap with Yellow before contact with Blue, Green is entitled to that room.

In Scenario 3, without that overlap and while astern of Yellow, I think it's a interesting question.
Created: 20-Mar-03 21:20
Eric Rimkus
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
A boat racing is not an obstruction to other boats unless they are required to keep clear of her.  So both Green and Blue would need to be required to keep clear of Yellow for Yellow to be an obstruction to them.
Yellow is an obstruction to Green (RRS 12), but not Blue.  Blue is not required to keep clear of Yellow, she is only required to give her room at the continuing obstruction.  At no time does Yellow become a ROW boat with respect to Blue, so at no time is Yellow an obstruction to Blue.
Same decision as scenario 1, DSQ Green RRS 11.
Created: 20-Mar-03 21:55
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
Ah, Ang, I think I see where you're going now with Scenario 2. I need to stare at it more but I think I agree with you, B would have to give room.
Created: 20-Mar-03 22:40
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
A little more digging has uncovered a couple RYA Cases that speak to the subject at hand ....

On the topic of how to test 19.2(c): RYA Case RYA2014-04

Note Q2/A2 relative to our scenarios #2 and #3.  It is interesting that they say that our Blue would need to give Green room to avoid Yellow (changing the colors of the case to our scenario), but does not come out on whether or not the space behind Yellow and to weather of Blue is sufficient (i.e if Green needs to attempt to slow down without an outside overlap with Yellow).

On the topic of when boats are "at" a continuing obstruction (so I'm not alone using "at"): RYA Case RYA2017-01

I couldn't find any US Appeals that speak to the issues.
Created: 20-Mar-04 15:37
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