Protest Committee & Hearing Procedures
Conflict between NOR and SI
I recently came across this in Another Forum (TM)
Rule 63.5(c) says
c) If there is a conflict between
(1) two or more rules that must be resolved before a decision can be made, and
(2) those rules are in the notice of race, the sailing instructions, or any of the other documents that govern the event under item (g) of the definition Rule,
then the protest committee shall apply the rule that it believes will provide the fairest result for all boats affected.
You can change 63.5 in the NoR/SI.
For example, you can state that in the event of conflict, the SI take precedence over the NOR.
It’s done a lot at low level events
Has anyone come across this?
What do people think about it?
Created: 26-Jul-09 10:54
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If so ... I'm curious what the perceived benefit is to the change. What is the preferable alternate standard for resolving the conflict?
PS .. in other words .. why change it and for what?
It appears that the advocates:
Giveing precedence to the SI over the NOR is exactly the change being suggested.
I've edited my OP to make this clear.
NIck's wording
is invalid unless it's accompanied by 'this changes RRS 65.3(c)'
I'm often AMAZED at how badly aligned some of the race docs I review are. It's like the RC (usually last to post) didn't take the time to carefully review the NOR already out there.
The RC should find these conflicts and work with OA to resolve them .. not strong-arm their preference over the OA's (IMHO).
Yea .. I don't buy that. It sows confusion to the racers .. putting it onto them to ignore what they read in the NOR.
If the SI is the preferred language and the OA doesn't want to issue an NOR mod, note that the SI changes the NOR (like any other rule change), thus calling competitor's attention to the fact that they might have read something different in the NOR.. but now it is changed in the SI.
I agree with every word you said
I try to be respectful and non judgmental towards my fellow race officials.So, 'Maybe'.
We need to remember that drafting and publishing NOR and SI, let alone the discussions and decision-making and planning that should precede drafting the documents, is a complex and quite difficult business.
There are a number of barriers or impediments to producing good, well coordinated documents, including:
Many otherwise highly competent people who get thrust into positions as Regatta Chairs or Race Officers don't have a good array of all these skills.
Those of us who have sat (and failed) judges exams including decision writing realise how difficult good writing is, and a protest decision is much shorter and less difficult than a whole SI or NOR.
I would suggest that getting an experienced judge involved early in the process, preferably at the NOR drafting stage, and keeping that judge on board through to the finalisation of the SI will help a lot.
But I've had experience with some sailing administrators who are reluctant to get judges involved in document development because 'they make things difficult'.
What if the better, or more fair resolution is the language in the NOR but hands are now tied to the SI language?
Always better for the RC to coordinate with the OA early in the process before either document is published.
It is easy to change a si, but there are time constraints on the nor so care is needed.
Now some rule changes can be in the si or nor there is more room for trouble.
I heard but have not checked that unless the nor and si say the si parapount then this is not so.
Any comments on this latter point?
RRS 86.1(b) says
The notice of race or sailing instructions may change a racing rule.
It might be argued that because:
I think that, wherever the provision is, each 'conflict' between the SI and the NOR is a change to the NOR and is subject to the adequate notice requirement of RRS 89.2(b), that is to say this SI have to be published an adequate time before the effect of each change in the NOR.
If the precedence provision was in the SI and not in the NOR, that would indicate me that it was not part of a well thought out document control strategy, and I would regard any 'conflict' with considerable suspicion.
Bear in mind that most 'conflicts' occur by mistake, rather than being deliberate. If the race committee changes the NOR by mistake in the SI, and there is a precedence provision, the race committee and the protest committee are bound hand and foot by the mistake.
It makes no sense to make SI automatically and belatedly overrule a contract.
Judgement of fairness can take this into account.
All of this argues for extreme care to be taken when authoring a NoR, and all parties realizing that it's a contract between the OA and the Competitors.
IMHO, far better to leave 63.5(c) entirely alone and point out the risk to the OAs. Failing that, the Jury doing what's most fair seems exactly right.
So the SI was an easy (lazy?) way to deal with errors and corrections in the earlier published NOR. Just fix them in the SI.
Nowadays, (circa. 2021?) the NOR and SI guides are combined into Appendix J. The content for each was fine tuned. Appendix J2 discourages repetition from NOR to SI by using the words, "Unless included in the notice of race, the sailing instructions shall include the following:..."
So if the RRS document guidance is followed, it is unnecessary to have the precedence stipulated, since the two documents serve different functions. There is limited repitition of topics from one to the other.
Overlap of topics (and possible conflict) is much rarer now that the two documents are organised to way better than before.
Yet, we still see old school wording and habits cropping up here and there. Probably because the SI writers feel more secure (incorrectly so) with the 'precedence' backing them up when they make errors in the NOR. Or because they haven't actually thought it through.
I recently reach out to Eastport YC OA/RC (Annapolis, MD) and applauded them in an email for the race-docs they put together for the MD Cures Cancer Regatta (formerly Leukemia Cup) that I competed in.
I think it was the best example I've seen so far of nearly zero overlap .. zero ambiguity .. NOR ans SI playing in their own space.
You could tell they took the extra time and effort to disentangle them.
I've sometimes thought about this. I don't like the idea much because I think it could result in a NOR change being 'hidden' in the SI without giving competitors fair notice of the change.
I don't think the SI can change the NOR 'like any other rule change'.
RRS 86.1(b) says
RRS Introduction Terminology (Definitions that aren't Definitions) defines Racing rule as:
And the first sentence of RRS Introduction says:
So the NOR is a rule , but it is not a 'racing rule' therefore the SI cannot validly change the NOR.
I agree .. an SI can't change an NOR .. and as an extension .. an NOR or SI can't change docs that fall within def: rule(g) "any other documents that govern the event." (The other items in def: rule all have there own described limits on changes. )
Sold. :-)
Ang
But I think that in your NOR 1 you could refer only to selected parts of a document.
Yea .. that's right .. as the "other docs" are not rules until they are referenced .. so if you only invoke sections of an external doc which contains options .. then only the options or sections become a rule.
No, on the shelf beside the CD was a my collection of contracts folder. So that's been there untouched for about 10 years.
AS 2124 8.1 Discrepancies to be resolved by the Superintendant.
Can't remember what FIDIC might have said, but I wouldn't be surprised.
I can just reiterate, in NOR/SI, discrepancies are usually caused by mistake, and if the mistake is in the SI, you don't want to be stuck with it when it is obviously unfair.
If asked, I always discourage OAs from using such a clause. But I still see it out there. What's more... it is often out there without correct reference to the rule being changed! Oh well.
Taking things one step further... just for laughs.
Is the SSI part of the SI or 'Other Document'?
Normally, the RC is more knowledgeable about the RRS and prepares "better" documents. The OA are sailing clubs that are less prepared to draft these documents.
Happy to hear any comment.
Typically, the OoP provision would be found in the [higher order] SCs - 'special confitions of contract' (I only have experience with this in major engineered industrial construction projects though).
With my limited experience with RRS / Events, I have not myself as yet seen an OoP provision being applied in either an NOR or SI - but would have no real aversion to it.
Perhaps also, at the least, the parting statement in Rule 63.5(c) could do with further elaboration and clarification ('fairest result')
Here, the NoR is prepared well in advance of the given Event - with both OA and major Sponsor inputs (to frame the event and to attract competitors etc), and later and much closer to the event commencement, the RM/RO prepares the SI - often with a professional RO mobilised and who posseses a very keen knowledge of RRS etc.
Here, I have asked AI to cross reference appendix J items. My aim is to identify information which is required to be contained in both documents. Such information could be a source of conflict.
As you can see, the areas of overlap are few... well, the only item in two columns is Schedule/Warning Signal.
The different purposes of the two documents are quite specific, and where information may be included in either, the App. J guidance specifically requires that it be omitted in the SIs if already included in the NOR.
The Appendix J preamble sums it up...
"Care should be taken to ensure that there is no conflict between rules in the notice of race, the sailing instructions or any other document that governs the event."
Duh!
Thus, there is very little need for any 'SI takes precedence' clause.
In the unlikely event of a conflict or an error or intended change in either document, I think the current requirements of RRS 65.3, 89.2(b) 90.2(e) are fine. Fix/Amend the document with the error/intended change. That way, it is clear and simple for competitors. No hidden changes or corrections or updates. Or if it really gets to that stage in a hearing, find the fairest resolution to a conflict. Then continue.
My original thoughts are solidified. Follow the guidance = no need for precedence.
Good chat.. .thanks!
APPENDIX J CROSS-REFERENCE NOTICE OF RACE AND SAILING INSTRUCTIONS Legend: X = included in that section X if applies = included only if applicable Via J2.1(1) = included in Sailing Instructions unless already included in Notice of Race Blank = not listed in that section Columns: J1.1 = Notice of Race shall include J1.2 = Notice of Race shall include if it applies J1.3 = Notice of Race shall include if it applies / helpful before Sailing Instructions are available J2.1 = Sailing Instructions shall include unless included in Notice of Race J2.2 = Sailing Instructions shall include if it applies unless included in Notice of Race Item / Point | J1.1 | J1.2 | J1.3 | J2.1 | J2.2 -------------------------------------------------------------------|------|--------------|--------------|----------------------|-------------- Title, place and dates of event; organizing authority | X | | | | Event governed by rules as defined in RRS | X | | | | Other governing documents and where/how to obtain them | X | | | | Classes to race | X | | | | Handicap or rating system and classes to which it applies | X | | | | Conditions of entry and restrictions on entries | X | | | | Registration or entry procedures, times, fees and closing dates | X | | | | Schedule / warning-signal times | X | | | X | Equipment inspection or event measurement procedures/times | | X if applies | | | Measurement or rating certificate requirements | | X if applies | | | World Sailing-authorized rule changes under rule 86.2 | | X if applies | | | Changes to class rules under rule 87 | | X if applies | | | Sailor categorization requirements | | X if applies | | | Para World Sailing functional classification requirements | | X if applies | | | Advertising chosen and supplied by organizing authority | | X if applies | | | Other advertising information | | X if applies | | | Rule 90.3(e) will apply | | X if applies | | | Change to 24-hour time limit in rule 90.3(e) | | X if applies | | | National prescriptions requiring advance preparation | | X if applies | | | Prescriptions for waters of more than one national authority | | X if applies | | | Alternative communications instead of hails under rule 20 | | X if applies | | | Change to clothing/equipment weight limit under rule 50.1(b) | | X if applies | | | Data-protection compliance requirements | | X if applies | | | Signed entry form agreeing to be bound by governing rules | | X if applies | | | Replacement of Part 2 with IRPCAS/government right-of-way rules | | X if applies | | | Changes to racing rules under rule 86.1 | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1) | Changes to national prescriptions | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1) | Time and place SIs will be available | | | X if applies | | General description of course/type of courses | | | X if applies | | Scoring system | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1) | Number of races scheduled | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1) | Minimum races to constitute a series | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1) | Rule A5.3 applies, if appropriate | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1) | Part 2 penalty other than Two-Turns Penalty | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1), if appl.| Last time for warning signal on final scheduled day | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1), if appl.| Denial of right of appeal | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1), if appl.| Rule G3 for chartered or loaned boats | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1), if appl.| Prizes | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1), if appl.| Complete course description or list of marks | | | | X | How courses will be signalled | | | | X | Change to finishing-line crossing direction | | | | X | Descriptions of marks | | | | X | Order in which marks are to be passed | | | | X | Side on which each mark is to be left | | | | X | Identification of rounding marks | | | | X | Descriptions of starting and finishing lines | | | | X | Class flags | | | | X | Special signals to be used | | | | X | Race time limit for first boat to sail the course | | | | X | Official notice board / online notice board location | | | | X | Race office location | | | | X | Whether Appendix P will apply | | | | | X if applies English copy of applicable national prescriptions | | | | | X if applies Procedure for changing the SIs | | | | | X if applies Procedure for oral changes to SIs on the water | | | | | X if applies Safety requirements | | | | | X if applies Signals ashore and signal-station locations | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on changes to boats supplied by organizing authority | | | | | X if applies Permitted propulsion under rule 42.3(i) | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on support person vessels | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on plastic pools | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on radios, etc. | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on trash disposal | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on hauling out | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on outside assistance to non-racing boat | | | | | X if applies Racing area | | | | | X if applies Starting area location and entry restrictions | | | | | X if applies Special procedures/signals for individual recall | | | | | X if applies Special procedures/signals for general recall | | | | | X if applies Approximate course length | | | | | X if applies Approximate length of windward legs | | | | | X if applies Procedures/signals for changing a leg of the course | | | | | X if applies Objects, areas or lines designated as obstructions | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on entering/crossing obstruction areas or lines | | | | | X if applies Boat identifying-mark locations | | | | | X if applies Procedures for shortening the course | | | | | X if applies Procedures for finishing a shortened course | | | | | X if applies Time limit for boats other than first boat to finish | | | | | X if applies Other time limits or target times while racing | | | | | X if applies Declaration requirements | | | | | X if applies Time allowances | | | | | X if applies Protest time limits | | | | | X if applies Place of hearings | | | | | X if applies Special procedures for protests | | | | | X if applies Special procedures for requests for redress | | | | | X if applies Special procedures for requests for reopening | | | | | X if applies Approval of international jury appointment | | | | | X if applies Time limit for hearing request under rule N1.4(b), if not 30 mins | | | | | X if applies National authority for appeals/requests under rule 70.4 | | | | | X if applies Substitution of competitors | | | | | X if applies Minimum boats in starting area required to start a race | | | | | X if applies When/where postponed or abandoned races will be sailed | | | | | X if applies Tides and currents | | | | | X if applies Other race committee commitments | | | | | X if applies Other obligations of boats | | | | | X if applies NOTES ON OVERLAPS 1. J2.1 begins "Unless included in the notice of race..." Therefore, several items can appear in either the Notice of Race or the Sailing Instructions. They generally do not need to be repeated in both. 2. The main direct overlap is J2.1(1), which requires the Sailing Instructions to include selected J1.3 items unless they are already included in the Notice of Race. 3. J2.1(1) includes the following J1.3 items: - J1.3(1): changes to racing rules under rule 86.1 - J1.3(2): changes to national prescriptions - J1.3(5): scoring system, number of races scheduled, minimum races to constitute a series, and rule A5.3 if appropriate - J1.3(6), when applicable: Part 2 penalty other than the Two-Turns Penalty - J1.3(7), when applicable: last time for a warning signal on the final scheduled day of racing - J1.3(8), when applicable: denial of the right of appeal - J1.3(9), when applicable: whether rule G3 applies for chartered or loaned boats - J1.3(10), when applicable: prizes 4. Schedule / warning-signal times appear in both J1.1 and J2.1: - J1.1(6) requires the Notice of Race to include warning-signal times for the practice race, if one is scheduled, the first race, and succeeding races if known. - J2.1(2) requires the Sailing Instructions to include the schedule of races and warning-signal times for each class, unless already included in the Notice of Race. These are combined in the table as "Schedule / warning-signal times." 5. Course information appears at different levels of detail: - J1.3(4): general description of the course or type of courses. - J2.1(3): complete course description or list of marks, course signalling, and any change to finishing-line crossing direction. - J2.1(4): mark descriptions, order, side to be left, and rounding marks. - J2.1(5): starting and finishing lines, class flags, and special signals. - J2.2(13): approximate course length and approximate windward-leg length. - J2.2(14): procedures or signals for changing a leg of the course. - J2.2(17): procedures for shortening the course or finishing a shortened course. These are kept separate in the table because they serve different purposes. 6. Appeals-related information is split: - J1.3(8): denial of the right of appeal, subject to rule 70.3. - J2.2(24): national authority to which appeals and requests may be sent, when required by rule 70.4. These are kept separate because they address different appeal issues. 7. Chartered, loaned, or supplied boats are split: - J1.3(9): for chartered or loaned boats, whether rule G3 applies. - J2.2(7): restrictions controlling changes to boats when supplied by the organizing authority. These are kept separate because they address different requirements. 8. National-prescription information appears in several places: - J1.2(7): national prescriptions requiring advance preparation when entries from other countries are expected. - J1.2(8): prescriptions applying when boats pass through waters of more than one national authority. - J1.3(2): changes to national prescriptions. - J2.2(2): English copy of applicable national prescriptions at certain international events. These are kept separate because each requirement is different. 9. Time-limit information appears in more than one place: - J2.1(6): race time limit for the first boat to sail the course. - J2.2(18): time limit for boats other than the first boat to finish, plus other time limits or target times while boats are racing. These are kept separate because they apply to different time limits. 10. Notice of Race vs Sailing Instructions: - The Notice of Race mainly contains information competitors need before deciding whether to enter or attend the event. - The Sailing Instructions mainly contain detailed operational information for the conduct of racing.
Same applies to NOR, particularly where these may be drafted and issued months in advance (even the prior year) for e.g. National Champs, major events such as Cowes/Cork/DL.
Fully agree this needs to be managed carefully and the earlier the actual Race officials can help with review the better, and stay away from the "contract" elements for sure!!
Ultimately - I always prefer drafting/reviewing both together, even if the SIs then sit in a drawer until the event.
I disagree. It may be expedient, but it is not perfect.
If they are all that perfect and well considered:
In my opinion, if anyone is going to change the master document, it should be the owner of the master document, and they should do that by a formal amendment.
Well, we can find something we agree on.
Big strong CAs like the Optis, aren't much of a problem, except when their advising IRO has distinctly different ideas from the RO appointed for an event, but smaller CAs sometimes don't have good governance and good rules advice about their Championship NOR or SI requirements in the first place: it only takes a few years of uncritical tinkering to make a mess of a classes Conditions of Racing.