Red is the inside boat. The easiest way to see this is to slide or translate the boats from where they are to them going around the mark. zz1.jpg73.3 KB
I probably should have said a little bit more. Red being the inside boat is just the situation at this moment and is used in applying RRS 18 to the boats in this position. When the boats tack, as they certainly must unless there is an incredible amount of current, the application of RRS 18 will change as the boat entitled to mark room (Red) will have passed head to wind.
It might help Cata to provide a fuller analysis. If the boats comtinue say two boat lengths on their current course then to me it seems hard to argue against blue being the inside boat. But what happens then? How does the relationship change when they tack and blue's mark room ends?
In my opinion, in this picture of position #1, the blue represents the inside boat. I agree that once the blue boat takes, the red one will be the inside boat.
The last sentence of R18.2(a) still requires Blue to give Red mark-room while they remain on starboard tack and Red remains in the zone. Blue is not entitled to mark-room. Red is still the inside boat - she is on the same side of Blue that Blue is required to leave the mark.
The last sentence of R18.2(a) still requires Blue to give Red mark-room while they remain on starboard tack and Red remains in the zone. Blue is not entitled to mark-room. Red is still the inside boat - she is on the same side of Blue that Blue is required to leave the mark.
I want us to focus on position number one. And I appreciate your patience as I continue to consider this case.
Blue's proper course is TACK, so the definition of Mark-Room Room is off.
Mark-Room Room for a boat (a) to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it.....
Then, Red has the right of way under Rule 11 and DOES NOT HAVE TO GIVE Mark Room to blue. ...... so in position N°1 rrs-18 WOULDN'T APPLY ?
18.1 When Rule 18 Applies (a) Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone.
Your diagram shows boats Red and Blue, both in the zone and required to leave the mark on the same side. This situation satisfies R18.1(a). The two boats are not on opposite tacks. Neither boat is leaving the mark. The mark is not a continuing obstruction. Therefore, none of the exceptions (1) to (4) are valid. Mark-room has not yet been given, so Rule 18 applies.
If Red and Blue were overlapped at the time the first of them reached the zone, then R18.2(a)(1) requires the outside boat to give the inside boat mark-room. John Christman shows a simple solution to the question of which boat is inside. The diagram does not show a wind direction. It may be possible that the boats could round the mark without needing to tack. In that case, it is easy to see that Red is the inside boat. Whether the boats are on a reach or close-hauled at the position shown, does not change the fact that Red is the inside boat.
If one of the boats tacks, Rule 18 no longer applies due to R18.1(a)(1). If both boats tack onto port and are overlapped, Rule 18.2(c) applies and the inside boat at that time is entitled to mark-room.
is red entitled to tack? shall blue give room, if/when red tacks?
RRS 18 never gives a boar an entitlement to tack.
Red is entitled to mark-room. Her proper course is to sail close to the mark, so she is entitled to room to sail to the mark.
So Red can change course towards the mark and in doing so will be sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled and thus will be exonerated by RRS 43.1(b) if she breaks RRS 16.1 while doing so. So Red can change course to windward, towards th mark, whether preparatory to tacking, or otherwis, as hard and as fast as she likes. Blue is required to keep clear, and if Red needs to change course away to avoid Blue, Blue breaks RRS 11 and should be penalised.
But
The instant Red passes head to wind RRS 18 ceases to apply and Red becomes required to keep clear of Blue by RRS 13, with no prospect of exoneration.
If Blue then also passes head to wind, while neither boat has reached a close hauled course, Blue remains right of way boat by RRS 13 last sentence, but both boats are again on the same tack in the zone, RRS 18.2(c) applies and Red, inside, is entitled to mark-room, once again to sail to the mark, but not to continue bearing away to her close hauled course which would be her proper course to do that.
So this is looking very much like a match racing dial up.
With the added complication that as long as Red sails no lower than the course to the mark she will be exonerated if she breaks RRS 13.
If the boats sail beyond the port layline (as shown in the second diagram Catalan posted in response to Jim Champ), does Blue infringe R18.2(a)(1) by not tacking to give Red room to sail to the mark? Red is entitled to mark-room. Her proper course is to tack and sail close to the mark. Is Blue required to tack to give Red room to sail to the mark?
Red is entitled to throw a hard luff at Blue, which may 'force' Blue to tack, or Blue may be able to keep clear of Red without tacking before Red passes head to wind.
If the boats sail beyond the port layline (as shown in the second diagram Catalan posted in response to Jim Champ), does Blue infringe R18.2(a)(1) by not tacking to give Red room to sail to the mark? Red is entitled to mark-room. Her proper course is to tack and sail close to the mark. Is Blue required to tack to give Red room to sail to the mark?
Catalan .. re: "Blue's proper course is TACK, so the definition of Mark-Room Room is off."
I think this might be a key to where you are going astray in your thinking. Both boats are on the same tack .. therefore there is no 18.1(a) condition which turns off 18 based upon a proper course to tack.
Several have provided different and effective ways to "look at it". The correct answer is that Red is inside .. so choose the one above that makes most sense to you.
I usually progress the boats in my mind without allowing their wake-lines to cross until they are alongside the mark on the requied side. This allows you to handle situations as illustrated in Case 12 as well.
John A makes a nice point about the "hard luff" by Red. Red can do that probably up until she might reasonably be able to coast to the mark HTW ... and be exonerated if Red breaks RRS 16.1.
However .. if they are 1-1/2 BL's past the mark and Red does this (image below), she is arguably no longer sailing within the mark-room she is entitled to (as she can no longer sail "to the mark" such that it can be left "on its required side"), and thus Red would not be exonerated for breaking 16.1.
Also .. as we've shown in numerous past threads .. assuming that both these boats tack 2 times inside the zone, neither boat will be entitled to mark-room after they both tack from port to starboard inside the zone (based on the application of 18.3 18.4).
John A makes a nice point about the "hard luff" by Red. Red can do that probably up until she might reasonably be able to coast to the mark HTW ... and be exonerated if Red breaks RRS 16.1.
However .. if they are 1-1/2 BL's past the mark and Red ...
Red is entitled to room to sail to the mark.
If she is not heading to or towards the mark, i think she is entitled to room to change course so as to sail to the mark
If it is not possible for her to do that without tacking, I think she is entitled to room up until she is heading to the mark, or passes head to wind, whichever comes sooner.
As shown in Angelo's diagram Red is not sailing to the mark, in fact she is sailing away from it, but she is still entitled to mark-room, that is room to sail to the mark, and as we've previously agreed, that is not a direct corridor from where she entered the zone, but it is a direct course from her present position to the mark. I'm saying that she is entitled to room to change course onto that heading.
assuming that both these boats tack 2 times inside the zone, neither boat will be entitled to mark-room after they both tack from port to starboard inside the zone (based on the application of 18.4).
ITYM RRS 18.3.
If, after both boats tack from starboard onto port the first time, the first of them to pass head to wind from port to starboard is not then fetching the mark, RRS 18.3 does not switch off RRS 18.2 and the inside boat is entitled to mark room.
John A .. yes .. my comment regarding 18.3 (thanks for pointing out typo) assumed that they were fetching the mark after the 2nd tack from port to starboard.
On your other point .. I don't think it's so clear that Red would still be sailing within the MR she is entitled to at the edge of the zone (if she luffed up). I never suggested it was a direct corridor from when she entered the zone.
I can definitely see and appreciate both arguments.
PS: I think we all agree that a MR entitled boat can simultaneously be in the zone and outside of the MR she is entitled to.
Let's place the boats in the top-left quad (the pie slice from 9-12). Is your answer the same? (That Red can luff up so quickly that she breaks 16.1 and is exonerated?).
Let's place the boats in the top-left quad (the pie slice from 9-12). Is your answer the same? (That Red can luff up so quickly that she breaks 16.1 and is exonerated?).
That's a good one.
With the mark astern, her direct course to the mark is to sail backwards to the mark.
While moving forwards, changing course either to port or to starboard is not changing course towards the mark.
Red's sensible choice then is to peel away into a port gybe.
John re "Red's sensible choice then is to peel away into a port gybe."
Yea .. that's how I would argue the point that Red in the 6-9 o'clock quad shown above would not be sailing within her MR if she luffed so quickly she broke 16.1.
The argument would go ... that there is no MR path to the mark which includes a luff HTW and then beyond. Therefore Red's MR from that position does not include luffing HTW.
However, a quick fall-off and gybe to port is a path which exists in contiguous MR as long as Red stays inside the zone. If Red wishes to have the possibility of exoneration under MR, that's the path she should take (gybe to port).
All that said, Red is ROW and can luff the windward boat HTW and try to force them to tack away ... she just can't do it so quickly that she breaks 16.1 (the argument would go).
John's analysis is, I think, a correct reading of the rule. Angelo suggests that if the red boat cannot sail to the mark on starboard tack, then she is not entitled to room to sail to it, and I think that's how many sailors interpret rule 18.2, even though the rule itself doesn't support that interpretation. I think that if the red boat in the original diagram were to luff sharply and hit the blue boat, the blue boat would protest under rule 16.1 and quite probably win in the protest room.
I don't understand Angelo's distinction between his scenario and the original one. In both cases, the inside boat is unable to pass the mark on the required side without tacking, so if she can't be exonerated for breaking rule 16.1 in Angelo's scenario, why can she be so in Catalan's?
Rob re: "were to luff sharply and hit the blue boat, the blue boat would protest under rule 16.1 and quite probably win in the protest room"
That's what I'm trying to say (in my typical awkward way) .. that a luff up breaking 16.1 would not be exonerated based upon Red's MR rights.
I'm not saying that Red is not entitled to MR .. she is. I'm arguing (for the sake of the argument ... wiling to be convinced otherwise) that MR doesn't include luffing to HTW when that luff is not a component of a path to the mark that exists with MR.
If I was to argue against that point I might argue the following ..
If Red luffs HTW and IF Blue passed HTW first , AND then when Red follows Red tacks such that Red is overlapped to windward of Blue as Red passes HTW (BOTH conditions required to keep MR contiguous) .. she will be the KC boat even if they are both tacking the same time, but Red's MR will change over from 18.2(a)(1) to 18.2(c) .. now being the windward/inside boat. In that way, there is a feasible path that Red is never not entitled to MR as she tacks for the mark.
That path though depends upon Blue passing HTW first.
Another argument against might be geometric. Any time Red is in the 6-9 quad, when she luffs HTW she's shortening her distance to the mark (hypotenuse vs sine). So that's "closer to" as in sailing past at some distance vs "to" the mark.
In fact I think that is a clearer construction than John's position translation approach.
I really like Murray's verbal formulation:
I agree that once the blue boat takes, the red one will be the inside boat.
The last sentence of R18.2(a) still requires Blue to give Red mark-room while they remain on starboard tack and Red remains in the zone. Blue is not entitled to mark-room. Red is still the inside boat - she is on the same side of Blue that Blue is required to leave the mark.
The last sentence of R18.2(a) still requires Blue to give Red mark-room while they remain on starboard tack and Red remains in the zone. Blue is not entitled to mark-room. Red is still the inside boat - she is on the same side of Blue that Blue is required to leave the mark.
And I appreciate your patience as I continue to consider this case.
Blue's proper course is TACK, so the definition of Mark-Room Room is off.
Mark-Room Room for a boat
(a) to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it.....
Then, Red has the right of way under Rule 11 and DOES NOT HAVE TO GIVE Mark Room to blue.
...... so in position N°1 rrs-18 WOULDN'T APPLY ?
18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
(a) Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave
a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone.
Your diagram shows boats Red and Blue, both in the zone and required to leave the mark on the same side.
This situation satisfies R18.1(a).
The two boats are not on opposite tacks.
Neither boat is leaving the mark.
The mark is not a continuing obstruction.
Therefore, none of the exceptions (1) to (4) are valid.
Mark-room has not yet been given, so Rule 18 applies.
If Red and Blue were overlapped at the time the first of them reached the zone, then R18.2(a)(1) requires the outside boat to give the inside boat mark-room.
John Christman shows a simple solution to the question of which boat is inside.
The diagram does not show a wind direction. It may be possible that the boats could round the mark without needing to tack. In that case, it is easy to see that Red is the inside boat.
Whether the boats are on a reach or close-hauled at the position shown, does not change the fact that Red is the inside boat.
If one of the boats tacks, Rule 18 no longer applies due to R18.1(a)(1).
If both boats tack onto port and are overlapped, Rule 18.2(c) applies and the inside boat at that time is entitled to mark-room.
RRS 18 never gives a boar an entitlement to tack.
Red is entitled to mark-room. Her proper course is to sail close to the mark, so she is entitled to room to sail to the mark.
So Red can change course towards the mark and in doing so will be sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled and thus will be exonerated by RRS 43.1(b) if she breaks RRS 16.1 while doing so. So Red can change course to windward, towards th mark, whether preparatory to tacking, or otherwis, as hard and as fast as she likes. Blue is required to keep clear, and if Red needs to change course away to avoid Blue, Blue breaks RRS 11 and should be penalised.
But
The instant Red passes head to wind RRS 18 ceases to apply and Red becomes required to keep clear of Blue by RRS 13, with no prospect of exoneration.
If Blue then also passes head to wind, while neither boat has reached a close hauled course, Blue remains right of way boat by RRS 13 last sentence, but both boats are again on the same tack in the zone, RRS 18.2(c) applies and Red, inside, is entitled to mark-room, once again to sail to the mark, but not to continue bearing away to her close hauled course which would be her proper course to do that.
So this is looking very much like a match racing dial up.
With the added complication that as long as Red sails no lower than the course to the mark she will be exonerated if she breaks RRS 13.
I think thats a really elegant verbalisation of the determinant.
Red is entitled to mark-room. Her proper course is to tack and sail close to the mark. Is Blue required to tack to give Red room to sail to the mark?
Red is entitled to throw a hard luff at Blue, which may 'force' Blue to tack, or Blue may be able to keep clear of Red without tacking before Red passes head to wind.
Red is entitled to mark-room. Her proper course is to tack and sail close to the mark. Is Blue required to tack to give Red room to sail to the mark?
I think this might be a key to where you are going astray in your thinking. Both boats are on the same tack .. therefore there is no 18.1(a) condition which turns off 18 based upon a proper course to tack.
Several have provided different and effective ways to "look at it". The correct answer is that Red is inside .. so choose the one above that makes most sense to you.
I usually progress the boats in my mind without allowing their wake-lines to cross until they are alongside the mark on the requied side. This allows you to handle situations as illustrated in Case 12 as well.
John A makes a nice point about the "hard luff" by Red. Red can do that probably up until she might reasonably be able to coast to the mark HTW ... and be exonerated if Red breaks RRS 16.1.
However .. if they are 1-1/2 BL's past the mark and Red does this (image below), she is arguably no longer sailing within the mark-room she is entitled to (as she can no longer sail "to the mark" such that it can be left "on its required side"), and thus Red would not be exonerated for breaking 16.1.
Also .. as we've shown in numerous past threads .. assuming that both these boats tack 2 times inside the zone, neither boat will be entitled to mark-room after they both tack from port to starboard inside the zone (based on the application of 18.3
18.4).If she is not heading to or towards the mark, i think she is entitled to room to change course so as to sail to the mark
If it is not possible for her to do that without tacking, I think she is entitled to room up until she is heading to the mark, or passes head to wind, whichever comes sooner.
As shown in Angelo's diagram Red is not sailing to the mark, in fact she is sailing away from it, but she is still entitled to mark-room, that is room to sail to the mark, and as we've previously agreed, that is not a direct corridor from where she entered the zone, but it is a direct course from her present position to the mark. I'm saying that she is entitled to room to change course onto that heading.
If, after both boats tack from starboard onto port the first time, the first of them to pass head to wind from port to starboard is not then fetching the mark, RRS 18.3 does not switch off RRS 18.2 and the inside boat is entitled to mark room.
On your other point .. I don't think it's so clear that Red would still be sailing within the MR she is entitled to at the edge of the zone (if she luffed up). I never suggested it was a direct corridor from when she entered the zone.
I can definitely see and appreciate both arguments.
PS: I think we all agree that a MR entitled boat can simultaneously be in the zone and outside of the MR she is entitled to.
Let's place the boats in the top-left quad (the pie slice from 9-12). Is your answer the same? (That Red can luff up so quickly that she breaks 16.1 and is exonerated?).
With the mark astern, her direct course to the mark is to sail backwards to the mark.
While moving forwards, changing course either to port or to starboard is not changing course towards the mark.
Red's sensible choice then is to peel away into a port gybe.
Yea .. that's how I would argue the point that Red in the 6-9 o'clock quad shown above would not be sailing within her MR if she luffed so quickly she broke 16.1.
The argument would go ... that there is no MR path to the mark which includes a luff HTW and then beyond. Therefore Red's MR from that position does not include luffing HTW.
However, a quick fall-off and gybe to port is a path which exists in contiguous MR as long as Red stays inside the zone. If Red wishes to have the possibility of exoneration under MR, that's the path she should take (gybe to port).
All that said, Red is ROW and can luff the windward boat HTW and try to force them to tack away ... she just can't do it so quickly that she breaks 16.1 (the argument would go).
That's what I'm trying to say (in my typical awkward way) .. that a luff up breaking 16.1 would not be exonerated based upon Red's MR rights.
I'm not saying that Red is not entitled to MR .. she is. I'm arguing (for the sake of the argument ... wiling to be convinced otherwise) that MR doesn't include luffing to HTW when that luff is not a component of a path to the mark that exists with MR.
If I was to argue against that point I might argue the following ..
If Red luffs HTW and IF Blue passed HTW first , AND then when Red follows Red tacks such that Red is overlapped to windward of Blue as Red passes HTW (BOTH conditions required to keep MR contiguous) .. she will be the KC boat even if they are both tacking the same time, but Red's MR will change over from 18.2(a)(1) to 18.2(c) .. now being the windward/inside boat. In that way, there is a feasible path that Red is never not entitled to MR as she tacks for the mark.
That path though depends upon Blue passing HTW first.
Another argument against might be geometric. Any time Red is in the 6-9 quad, when she luffs HTW she's shortening her distance to the mark (hypotenuse vs sine). So that's "closer to" as in sailing past at some distance vs "to" the mark.