Forum: Match and Team Racing Rules

Rule 18 in match racing - how much power does the clear ahead boat has???

Stavros Kouris
Nationality: Greece
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
The situation is the following (I also tried to draw a picture of the situation):

Match Race Finish line penalty (alt).jpeg 65.7 KB
Blue with an outstanding penalty enters the zone of the RC vessel clear ahead of Yellow.
Blue starts luffing and then at position 5 starts taking her penalty. Yellow at that moment just entered the zone on starboard
Blue never leaves the zone throughout the incident.
Just right before position 7, Blue reaches a course more than 90 degrees from the true wind.
Both boats try to bear away and there is contact between the boats at position 8
Both boats display the Y flag
What should the call be?

I will also try to give you my thoughts and I would like your comments
 - B enters the zone clear ahead of Y so 18.2(a)(2) applies
 - At position 5 B is taking her penalty and shall keep clear of Y under 22.1 (which she does). Because Y acquired the RoW because of the actions of the other boat she is not required to give her initially room to keep clear.
 - Just before position 7 B completes her penalty when she reaches a course more than 90 degrees from the true wind
 - B throughout the incident never leaves the zone so she is entitled to mark room all the time.
 - Although Blue is not sailing a proper course while she is taking her penalty, mark-room is still the space she needs to sail her proper course, which is the course she would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of Yellow (This is something taken from the MR Call K6 and I don't see why we cannot apply the same concept also here)

Y fails to give B that space and breaks RRS 18.2(a)(2)
First signal penalty done for B, just before position 7 and then signal penalty to Y and probably second penalty to Y because she gained an advantage by breaking a rule after allowing for a penalty
B breaks RRS 10 but she is exonerated under 21(a)
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Let's assume that Y has to take avoiding action just before Y reaches a course more than 90 degrees from the true wind, would the answer be different?

In my opinion in that case 
 Penalty B for breaking 22.1
 As soon as B reaches a course more than 90 degrees from the true wind, 1st Blue flag down because breaking 22.1 does not make the penalty invalid
 Yellow then fails to give mark room to B so penalty Y for breaking RRS 18.2.(a)(2)
 Remove both flags as penalties are offset
 Signal second penalty to Y because she gained an advantage by breaking a rule after allowing for a penalty

If it is like this, then how much power does the clear ahead boat has in side the zone?
Thank you for your answers
Created: 20-Feb-01 22:12

Comments

John Standley
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
1
The call correct as the rules are currently written.
I do however, think too much power is given to the clear ahead boat in such cases.
As some will know I have long been an advocate of 'Use it or lose it'. 
In this case tit would be a lot easier for umpires if the 'use it or lose it' principle applied.
At position 1 Blue has to be given room to sail her proper course to pass the mark and finish. She has been given plenty of room, time , opportunity  etc. to do that. Yellow has therefore fulfilled her obligations.
When Blue luffs to take her penalty, she is no longer sailing her proper course (C2.3)  and, in my opinion, has chosen to waive her rights for mark-room.
I think this interpretation would provide much more clarity for both umpires and sailors alike and would be significantly simpler to adjudicate.
Would like to see the rules changed to reflect the 'use it or lose it' principle.

Created: 20-Feb-02 00:55
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
John & Stavros, from someone outside MR'ing but just looking through the rules, would solving this issue by changing C7.3b to include the zones of finish marks as well, mess-up something else big?
Created: 20-Feb-02 14:00
Juuso Leivonen
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • National Judge
0
First reaction is that I’d also say that the new K6 (mr call book supplement) would direct one to Stavros’ conclusions. The thing to do, if you’re trailing a boat with a penalty and she gets to the zone clear ahead, stay away and try to go around, instead of in between :)

To Angelo, I don’t know if including finishing marks to the penalty limitations would mess-up things, just change the game a bit. If the boat is delaying taking the penalty close to the line (which they often do, at least now), then judging the zone during the penalty would be an added burden on umpires.. 
Created: 20-Feb-02 14:21
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Juuso re: "If the boat is delaying taking the penalty close to the line (which they often do, at least now), then judging the zone during the penalty would be an added burden on umpires.. "

3 BL's (2BL for zone and 1BL for good measure) from the line is still pretty darn close! :-)
Created: 20-Feb-02 14:44
Myrto Antonopoulou
Nationality: Greece
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
  • Judge In Training
0
I agree with the decision, given Call K6.

i just don’t see how Call K6 reaches the conclusion that, although B is not sailing a proper course while she is taking her penalty, Y fails to give B the space she needed to sail her proper course, and so breaks 18.2(a)(2).

Mark room is room for a boat to sail her proper course to round or pass the mark on the required side and a boat taking a penalty is not sailing a proper course.

I understand that mark room is the space B needs to sail her proper course, buy, since that does not include Blue taking a penalty, the way i see it, Y gave that room to B, she just those not to sail in it by taking a penalty.
Created: 20-Feb-03 21:28
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
1
Myrto, since nobody else has replied I'll take a shot at it.  I hope someone will chime in if I get something wrong.

You said .. 

 "I just don’t see how Call K6 reaches the conclusion that, although B is not sailing a proper course while she is taking her penalty, Y fails to give B the space she needed to sail her proper course, and so breaks 18.2(a)(2)"

At the bottom I've copied the drawing from K6.

  1. Under MR  C7.2(a)2 .. because this is at the finish, Blue's penalty is to tack and then bare away to a course more than 90 degs.
    1. Blue attempts to do this between #5 to #7.
  2. Blue is first to enter the zone clear ahead, therefore MR 18.2.a.2 says Yellow shall give Blue mark-room thereafter
  3. Under MR C2.9, 18.2 is changed .. so Blue's tacks do not turn-off her mark-room like it would in Fleet racing (via FR's 18.2(d))
  4. Also, mark-room is changed in MR to ...
    1. "Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail her proper course to round or pass the mark on the required side."
  5. OK ... so now what is Blue's proper course? MR'ing also changes "Proper Course" by adding .. 
    1. " A boat taking a penalty or maneuvering to take a penalty is not sailing a proper course. "

Call K6 states: "Throughout the incident Blue never leaves the zone, so she is entitled to mark-room all the time. Although Blue is not sailing a proper course while she is taking her penalty, mark-room is still the space she needs to sail her proper course, which is the course she would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of Yellow. Yellow fails to give her that space and breaks rule 18.2(a)(2)."

So pulling this all together, what K6 is pointing out is that though a boat can not claim she is sailing a proper course while she is taking a penalty, her taking a penalty does not negate her right to mark-room because there is nothing in MR's 18 that turns-off mark-room for a boat taking a penalty or for tacking in the zone.  Since mark-room still applies, Blue has the right to sail her proper course as long as 18.2(a)2 applies between them.

Since proper course applies while Blue remains in the zone, then you remove Yellow and what course would Blue sail inside the zone?  Her tack from #4-#5 was just a setup for the penalty, but she stays inside the zone so 18.2(a)2 still applies.  From #6-#7, in the absence of Yellow, Blue would have continued to fall-off, past completing her penalty and moved into the space Yellow-#8 is occupying to finish more quickly.

Yellow attempted to take room she didn't have rights to .. gambled and lost. As Case 63  states .. "At a mark, when space is made available to a boat that is not entitled to it, she may, at her own risk, take advantage of the space."

Created: 20-Feb-06 17:18
Myrto Antonopoulou
Nationality: Greece
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
  • Judge In Training
1
 Angelo,
 
The way I see it, the fact that 18 does not turn-off mark-room for a boat taking a penalty and the fact that a boat taking a penalty is not sailing within that room, are two different thinks.
 
Blue has indeed the right to sail her proper course as long as 18.2(a)2 applies between her and Yellow, but nothing Yellow did, while Blue was taking a penalty, prevented her from doing so.
 
Yellow is not entitled to that space, but neither is Blue while she is taking a penalty. 
 
So, i see no reason why Yellow didn't have the right to take that room, provided that, the moment Blue completes or stops taking her penalty, Yellow is out of her way.
 
Created: 20-Feb-07 14:59
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
-1
Myrto, I'm only reading the statement of K6.

I hope that an experienced Umpire will chime in here and possibly set us both straight. :-)

You said .. "Yellow is not entitled to that space, but neither is Blue while she is taking a penalty."

Before we get into K6 again, I think maybe I'll share a habit I've tried to get into whenever "proper course" is used, and that is to try to be very clear in my mind how the rule is using proper course.

For instance, in fleet racing when considering Rule 17, the aspect of proper course is that the limited boat can not sail above it.  Likewise other rules use proper course as a test as to whether or not a boat can do something, as is done in Mark-Room.

When I read K6, I see them laying out a 2-track analysis, because there are 2 rules that simultaneously use proper course that applies to Blue and Yellow.
  1. Track 1 is looking at Blue taking a penalty and whether or not Blue claim she is sailing her proper course while taking her penalty.
  2. Track 2 is looking at Blue leaving the finish-mark on its proper side while she is entitled to mark-room, where she is entitled to sail her proper course.

I think K6 is pointing out that if you take the mark out of the picture and Blue was taking her penalty, she can not claim her path through the water is her proper course (Track 1).  In other words, she can't make the argument that she needs to take her penalty to finish as quickly as possible and therefore taking her penalty is part of her sailing her proper course.  

  • That said (Track 2), she has an independent right to sail her proper course by virtue of her mark-room. That proper course would take her close to the bow of the RC into the space that Yellow-#8 is occupying. Blue need not make a claim that Yellow is preventing Blue from completing her penalty and thus preventing Blue from sailing her proper course. Rather, Blue can make the claim that she has an independent entitlement to sail into that space as that is what she would do in the absence of Yellow.

Again, this is from K6 .. 

Call K6 states: "Throughout the incident Blue never leaves the zone, so she is entitled to mark-room all the time. Although Blue is not sailing a proper course while she is taking her penalty, mark-room is still the space she needs to sail her proper course, which is the course she would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of Yellow. Yellow fails to give her that space and breaks rule 18.2(a)(2)."

That's at least how I understand it after reading the Call and the MR Rules.

I hope someone else with a better way of explaining it (or showing that I have it wrong) can take a swing at it.

Ang
Created: 20-Feb-07 16:00
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