Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

Rule 18.3

Eric Meyn
100
Tips
P and S are fetching the windward mark. P will tack close to the mark in the zone. S is above the lay line a bit. P tacks to starboard as S enters the zone and overtakes P to windward, just as she completes the tack and powers up. If I’m reading the rule right, while P doesn’t have room rights because she tacked in the zone, as long as she doesn’t push S above close-hauled, she’s still the leeward boat and S cannot push P below the mark, correct?
Created: 25-Oct-10 12:54

Comments

Format:
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Provided P reaches her close hauled course without S needing to take avoiding action (RRS 13) and then initially gives S room to keep clear (RRS 15), then Yes.
Created: 25-Oct-10 13:00
Craig Evans
Reply to: 19269 - John Allan
Sounds right!
Created: 25-Oct-10 15:28
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 19269 - John Allan
Eric, what John A is saying in 3 pictures ..

Scenario #1 - No rule broken. 
Yellow is not caused to alter course during Red's tack and is not forced above close-hauled course after Red passes HTW. Red initially gave Yellow room to keep clear when Red fell to a close-hauled course and gained ROW, therefore Red did not break RRS 15.

Scenario #2 - Yellow breaks RRS 11. 
Cyan completes her tack without Yellow altering course and Cyan initially gives Yellow room to keep clear (no RRS 15 breach).  Yellow does not owe Cyan mark-room, but she must keep clear of Cyan under RRS 11.  Yellow, forcing Cyan to leeward, did not keeping-clear of Cyan, and broke RRS 11.

Scenario #3 - Purple breaks both RRS 18.3 and RRS 13. 
Yellow must alter course while Purple was required to keep clear under RRS 13, therefore Purple breaks 13. The incident occurs before Purple obtains ROW, therefore RRS 15 did not apply at that time. Yellow is also forced to sail above close-hauled after Purple passes HTW from port to starboard inside the zone, thus Purple also breaks RRS 18.3.

image.png 144 KB
Created: 25-Oct-10 16:26
Warren Collier
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 19269 - John Allan
Ang - I was looking at the scenario pictures and I think there is more detail needed in Scenario #2. Are you assuming that Yellow is not close-hauled or comes down on Cyan forcing her to miss the mark? Because if Yellow is close-hauled and would have to go above close-hauled to keep clear of Cyan trying to shoot the mark, then, Cyan broke 18.3 since she caused Yellow to go above close-hauled and isn't entitled to mark-room because 18.2 doesn't apply.

On a separate topic about 18.3 - when does 18.3 obligations of the boat tacking from port to starboard end?
1. After the mark has been rounded/passed by the starboard fetching boat?
2. While the boats remain in the zone?
Argument for #2 is Team Racing call E-15.

I've reviewed the rules in light of this new understanding and come up with-yes #2 is the correct answer since:
1. 18 continues to apply until both boats are out of the zone by 18.1(a) first sentence and no exceptions apply.
2. 18.3(a) applies and thus not only does 18.2 not apply, but also 18.1(b) doesn't apply since no mark-room is owed to the inside boat that was the port to starboard tacker.
3. There is nothing that turns off 18.3(a) until one of the boats tacks which of course means 18.1(a)(1) turns off 18 or both boats leave the zone.

TR Call E-15.png 94.5 KB


Created: Tue 17:44
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Warren ... I say in Scenario #2 that "Cyan forces Yellow to leeward" ... and show Cyan at #3 slightly above the layline ... such that Cyan could make the mark without altering course to windward.

Yes ... if Cyan caused Yellow to sail above close-hauled (as in #3) she would break 18.3.  That said, it's not Yellow's call to make whether or not Cyan is going to make it. Yellow must keep clear of Cyan under RRS 11, even if Cyan takes Yellow HTW.   Yellow's option then is to protest.

"When does 18.3 end?"

I had an old thread that asked that exact question. I'll find it and add it after I submit this comment.

Wow .. 2018 :-)

Thread: When does RRS18's limitations cease?
Created: Thu 10:35
Warren Collier
Nationality: United States
Ang thanks I see your scenario does mention Yellow forcing Cyan down below the mark. Agree 11 is broken in that scenario. Thanks for digging up the 2018 reference to 18.3 not ending until the two boats leave the zone. That was an interesting learning. 
Created: Thu 12:41
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