'Not sure i completely agree, an online notice board can be unofficial. There can be only 1 'official' notice board that needs to be defined in NOR and SIs.
Ben, Re Sue, Perhaps you could explain your disagreement a little more.
Strictly within the context of the rrs.org Event Management System Paul's answer to your question that there is no functional differences between the 'Official Notice Board' and the 'Online Notice Board' was, of course quite right.
I think Sue was addressing the broader context of the RRS. Most events these days have some sort of online noticeboard. This is not necessarily the Official Notice Board. RRS J2.1(7) requires that the NOR or SI identify which or where is the Official Notice Board.
Let's be clear. My question was about the computer coding functionality of the two versions on racingrulesofsailing.org, not the RRS function.
Sue appears (as you say) to have commented on the RRS connotation, and I agree with her.
------------------------------ The phrase 'Official Notice Board' is not defined, but is used several times in the RRS in an ordinary sense.
61.1 - Race Committee Protests 86.2 - WS Authorisation letter for changes to rules in a specific event 87 - Permission to change class rules at an event 90.2 - Sailing Instructions location (J2.1(7) - Location of ONB) N1.7 - WS Authorisation Letter to adjust constitution of International Jury N1.8 - MNA approval of the International Jury (App. S - Example standard sailing instructions)
However J2.1(7) asks for the SI to define it's location, and that essentially defines it as 'the location for the information in referred to elsewhere'. So it doesn't need any special definition.
'Online Notice Board' is a remnant of the old days when ONBs were physical paper noticeboards, but backed up online. Now there seems to be cross-over in the uses of both.
The terminology here is pedantic. I think as per Appendix J, an 'Official Notice Board' should be referred to. Thus, the name online notice board is redundant when all comms are online anyway.
I think it's an omission not to specifically name an Official Notice Board.
I wonder about efficacy of "Official Notice Board" being an online system, particularly as relates to protests and protest notifications. Since "board" isn't in the RRS Definitions, I resorted to Webster's. Definition 1 says a "board" is a flat piece of wood with length greater than width. (New International, 2004 ed.); but my real problem is that online systems are basically "pull" and subject to internet outages, permanency, wet phones, variability between systems, etc. In contrast, physical notice boards are inherently "push," especially since they're usually located at or near the gangway to the harbor. I understand WS wanting to minimize unnecessary use of forestry resources, but it seems to me to be a beneficial use to ensure fairness between competitors. More resources are bound to be consumed in requests for redress than in hanging a few sheets of paper where everyone can see them. Also, RRS 60.2(b) uses the term "inform," which is proactive, and again, the intention of the Rules is clearly to push to the protestee.
I'm also concerned about the meanings of the word "deliver" and "in writing" in 60.3(a). Scrawling "Andy's boat protests Bobby's boat under Rule 10" on a club napkin and carrying it to The Room is clearly a valid protest. It's evidentiary and permanent. Sending an X or Instagram message does not constitute "in writing," is not permanent, and is not in any sense guaranteed to be delivered.
'Online Notice Board' is a remnant of the old days when ONBs were physical paper noticeboards, but backed up online. Now there seems to be cross-over in the uses of both.
Benjamin wrote: "'Online Notice Board' is a remnant of the old days when ONBs were physical paper noticeboards, but backed up online. Now there seems to be cross-over in the uses of both."
I beg to differ that it is a remnant. If the Rules Committee chose to distinguish them, it seems clear to me that they're different things entirely. J2.1(7)
'Online Notice Board' is a remnant of the old days when ONBs were physical paper noticeboards, but backed up online. Now there seems to be cross-over in the uses of both.
Benjamin wrote: "'Online Notice Board' is a remnant of the old days when ONBs were physical paper noticeboards, but backed up online. Now there seems to be cross-over in the uses of both."
I beg to differ that it is a remnant. If the Rules Committee chose to distinguish them, it seems clear to me that they're different things entirely. J2.1(7)
my real problem is that online systems are basically "pull" and subject to internet outages, permanency, wet phones, variability between systems, etc.
I think these concerns are really exaggerated.
The RRS, in particular RRS J2.1(7) specifically countenance the use of an online [electronic] notice board.
The drafters of the RRS are not some cutting edge 'tech bros' boosting electronic systems. I think we can take for granted that this inclusion was subject to very mature and protracted debate addressing Kenneth's concerns before approval.
More resources are bound to be consumed in requests for redress than in hanging a few sheets of paper where everyone can see them.
' hanging a few sheets of paper where everyone can see them' is not an Official Notice Board, it's an unprofessional mess.
I'd suggest that Kenneth has never had the rewarding and educational experience of being a Jury Secretary at a busy regatta.
Maintaining the Official Notice Board up to date, from about half an hour before end of racing to end of protest hearings was a full time job for at least one person.
John, I appreciate your point of view, though I suspect we have different perspectives :-) I do understand the complexity and added labor, particularly for regattas with perhaps hundreds of entries. Maybe I'm too much of a Boomer, and like the old ways. But words like "board," "deliver," "inform," and "location" have specific meanings, and if those meanings are to be changed (from my perspective, subverted) then it would be appropriate to clarify their meanings in the Definitions. Changing from "push" to "pull" not only shifts the burden from RC/PC to competitors (who have their own set of concerns), but also significantly handicaps the technologically challenged. I'm not saying, John, that electronics can't help things along; I'm just saying the public nature, permanence and immutability of paper eases the competitors' burden and allows them to focus on sailing. Certainly didn't mean to get your hackles up.
I also just saw this post, which would ease my concerns considerably: https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/2361-allowing-protests-to-be-filed-in-yachtscoring#comment_14254
Again, John, I do appreciate your POV, with appropriate accommodation and safeguards. Goodbye, Notice Board, I'll miss you!
Well, ever since the internet started, online discussion areas were called Bulletin 'Boards'. Yet, the early internet was not made of wood, was it?
I don't think leaning on Webster's 22 year old definition of board being a plank of wood is really a strong argument against digital notice boards. A notice board is a notice board, whether physical or not.
As for 'deliver', 'location', 'in writing I really believe that their meanings can, in today's day and age, all fit the digital 'technological' (modern?) era. (Although, there are clearly people who seem resistant to those evolutions - as seen in this and previous discussion threads.)
In short, I think now that physical notice boards are 100% replaceable by a good online system. I think it is an inevitable progression too. Technology doesn't go backwards.
----------------- Evolution of Board
In the beginning, there were only physical notice boards. A simple communications system. Jury Sec walks to the 'notice board' with paper and pins/tape/magnets. Done. Then there were hybrid systems. OAs were sceptical of jumping fully into digital, so it was baby steps. They said, "What if the internet goes down? People don't know how to use the system! How will we keep records?"
Slowly though (over eight years here), OAs edged forward through the Ages of Boards.
1. Physical Notice Board Only 2. Physical Notice Board with repeated Online Notice Board. (N.B. This always came with an SI saying 'no redress' if the online one was not updated.) 3. Two Notice Boards - Equal Physical and Online Boards!!! Dumb idea. 4. Online Notice Board with repeated Physical Notice Board. (Same but opposite SI for no redress if the other was not updated.!) 5. Online Notice Board Only
(Which stage describes you and your club best?)
It was interesting watching OAs (and some competitors) resist, but slowly change from one stage to the next. To be honest, Stages 2 - 4 were a nightmare.
Now, I would say most events I am involved in now have fully converted to fully digital jury/race management. Phew! Some may run 'paper options', but event those are rarer. Others are toying with messaging apps as a notice board (I don't necessarily like that).
Along the way, bugs and issues needed ironing out, but that's evolution, right? Nowadays, more people have phones and they are getting smarter and smarter, the internet is more stable, digital comms are more sturdy and acceptable, development and user interfaces are more usable, and the kids of today especially, are better at typing than writing!
----------------- Don't get bored - Keep moving forward or get left behind!
I firmly believe that evolution is unavoidable. Thus, I think it is a little futile to resist to any great extent. However, I absolutly think that the rate of change is important too. The change to modern systems must not alienate people used to older systems, because that will also cause problems.
So, it's ok to have paper protest forms at the 'Nipper Masters' event!!! Eventually, the last Nipper will sink along with the need for paper forms. At Foiling Moths Worlds, I think you could get away with an all-digital system.
All I ask is that the NOR/SI point to one single place (digital or physical) where a competitor can find all information and perform all tasks relevant to the event.
"Futile to resist." Okay. But I still ask for clarity from WS. "Others are toying with messaging apps" This really hits home. My local clubs are using WeChat, ubiquitous in the country in which I reside. It's a great messaging app with a ton of great features, but it's extremely weak in other areas, such as search and export. Diagrams on a cellphone? Confirmation of receipt? It's more of a toy than a tool in these areas. Not to mention how well salt water and cell phones mix. Thanks for your insight, Ben. Deep and well-considered. But I still have some concerns and reservations. Especially when working in a language which isn't native to me.
I am a big believer in online official notice boards. During covid, when we could sail, we did not want the crush of compeitors by a physical notice board. We got used to the new systems, and began to prefer them. It is ok saying the internet may go down, as an outsider at a club, geting access to a printer is difficultt at international wvents you canot bring your own printer, you cam only write so much in a given time. I do events run from multiple cluds, a crew member had to be dispatched, to check for prptrsy scedule and si changes. Now all are online generaly, and notifications are given by e mail. In multi class regattas just posting all the protest time limits was a majour task, now managed from the pc. Same for hearing schedules, not to aay the ease of the notices then a commirtee is protesting. Lang live the electronic sysstems. Do however specify the online system as the official notice board,. Get the link from rrs post about the venus the qr codes.
Perhaps you could explain your disagreement a little more.
My question was really only pertaining to the 'function' (say, the 'computer code behind the webpages') rather than the RRS 'officialness' of ithem.
I think Paul answered my query.
B
Strictly within the context of the rrs.org Event Management System Paul's answer to your question that there is no functional differences between the 'Official Notice Board' and the 'Online Notice Board' was, of course quite right.
I think Sue was addressing the broader context of the RRS. Most events these days have some sort of online noticeboard. This is not necessarily the Official Notice Board. RRS J2.1(7) requires that the NOR or SI identify which or where is the Official Notice Board.
Let's be clear. My question was about the computer coding functionality of the two versions on racingrulesofsailing.org, not the RRS function.
Sue appears (as you say) to have commented on the RRS connotation, and I agree with her.
------------------------------
The phrase 'Official Notice Board' is not defined, but is used several times in the RRS in an ordinary sense.
61.1 - Race Committee Protests
86.2 - WS Authorisation letter for changes to rules in a specific event
87 - Permission to change class rules at an event
90.2 - Sailing Instructions location
(J2.1(7) - Location of ONB)
N1.7 - WS Authorisation Letter to adjust constitution of International Jury
N1.8 - MNA approval of the International Jury
(App. S - Example standard sailing instructions)
However J2.1(7) asks for the SI to define it's location, and that essentially defines it as 'the location for the information in referred to elsewhere'. So it doesn't need any special definition.
'Online Notice Board' is a remnant of the old days when ONBs were physical paper noticeboards, but backed up online. Now there seems to be cross-over in the uses of both.
The terminology here is pedantic. I think as per Appendix J, an 'Official Notice Board' should be referred to. Thus, the name online notice board is redundant when all comms are online anyway.
I think it's an omission not to specifically name an Official Notice Board.
B
I'm also concerned about the meanings of the word "deliver" and "in writing" in 60.3(a). Scrawling "Andy's boat protests Bobby's boat under Rule 10" on a club napkin and carrying it to The Room is clearly a valid protest. It's evidentiary and permanent. Sending an X or Instagram message does not constitute "in writing," is not permanent, and is not in any sense guaranteed to be delivered.
Thoughts?
I beg to differ that it is a remnant. If the Rules Committee chose to distinguish them, it seems clear to me that they're different things entirely. J2.1(7)
I beg to differ that it is a remnant. If the Rules Committee chose to distinguish them, it seems clear to me that they're different things entirely. J2.1(7)
The RRS, in particular RRS J2.1(7) specifically countenance the use of an online [electronic] notice board.
The drafters of the RRS are not some cutting edge 'tech bros' boosting electronic systems. I think we can take for granted that this inclusion was subject to very mature and protracted debate addressing Kenneth's concerns before approval.
There's formal law in many countries that says that an electronic communication is a communication in writing.
I'd suggest that Kenneth has never had the rewarding and educational experience of being a Jury Secretary at a busy regatta.
Maintaining the Official Notice Board up to date, from about half an hour before end of racing to end of protest hearings was a full time job for at least one person.
Again, John, I do appreciate your POV, with appropriate accommodation and safeguards. Goodbye, Notice Board, I'll miss you!
Well, ever since the internet started, online discussion areas were called Bulletin 'Boards'. Yet, the early internet was not made of wood, was it?
I don't think leaning on Webster's 22 year old definition of board being a plank of wood is really a strong argument against digital notice boards. A notice board is a notice board, whether physical or not.
As for 'deliver', 'location', 'in writing I really believe that their meanings can, in today's day and age, all fit the digital 'technological' (modern?) era. (Although, there are clearly people who seem resistant to those evolutions - as seen in this and previous discussion threads.)
In short, I think now that physical notice boards are 100% replaceable by a good online system. I think it is an inevitable progression too. Technology doesn't go backwards.
-----------------
Evolution of Board
In the beginning, there were only physical notice boards. A simple communications system. Jury Sec walks to the 'notice board' with paper and pins/tape/magnets. Done. Then there were hybrid systems. OAs were sceptical of jumping fully into digital, so it was baby steps. They said, "What if the internet goes down? People don't know how to use the system! How will we keep records?"
Slowly though (over eight years here), OAs edged forward through the Ages of Boards.
1. Physical Notice Board Only
2. Physical Notice Board with repeated Online Notice Board. (N.B. This always came with an SI saying 'no redress' if the online one was not updated.)
3. Two Notice Boards - Equal Physical and Online Boards!!! Dumb idea.
4. Online Notice Board with repeated Physical Notice Board. (Same but opposite SI for no redress if the other was not updated.!)
5. Online Notice Board Only
(Which stage describes you and your club best?)
It was interesting watching OAs (and some competitors) resist, but slowly change from one stage to the next. To be honest, Stages 2 - 4 were a nightmare.
Now, I would say most events I am involved in now have fully converted to fully digital jury/race management. Phew! Some may run 'paper options', but event those are rarer. Others are toying with messaging apps as a notice board (I don't necessarily like that).
Along the way, bugs and issues needed ironing out, but that's evolution, right? Nowadays, more people have phones and they are getting smarter and smarter, the internet is more stable, digital comms are more sturdy and acceptable, development and user interfaces are more usable, and the kids of today especially, are better at typing than writing!
-----------------
Don't get bored - Keep moving forward or get left behind!
I firmly believe that evolution is unavoidable. Thus, I think it is a little futile to resist to any great extent. However, I absolutly think that the rate of change is important too. The change to modern systems must not alienate people used to older systems, because that will also cause problems.
So, it's ok to have paper protest forms at the 'Nipper Masters' event!!! Eventually, the last Nipper will sink along with the need for paper forms. At Foiling Moths Worlds, I think you could get away with an all-digital system.
All I ask is that the NOR/SI point to one single place (digital or physical) where a competitor can find all information and perform all tasks relevant to the event.
My 2 cents!
"Others are toying with messaging apps" This really hits home. My local clubs are using WeChat, ubiquitous in the country in which I reside. It's a great messaging app with a ton of great features, but it's extremely weak in other areas, such as search and export. Diagrams on a cellphone? Confirmation of receipt? It's more of a toy than a tool in these areas. Not to mention how well salt water and cell phones mix.
Thanks for your insight, Ben. Deep and well-considered. But I still have some concerns and reservations. Especially when working in a language which isn't native to me.
During covid, when we could sail, we did not want the crush of compeitors by a physical notice board.
We got used to the new systems, and began to prefer them.
It is ok saying the internet may go down, as an outsider at a club, geting access to a printer is difficultt at international wvents you canot bring your own printer, you cam only write so much in a given time.
I do events run from multiple cluds, a crew member had to be dispatched, to check for prptrsy scedule and si changes.
Now all are online generaly, and notifications are given by e mail.
In multi class regattas just posting all the protest time limits was a majour task, now managed from the pc.
Same for hearing schedules, not to aay the ease of the notices then a commirtee is protesting.
Lang live the electronic sysstems.
Do however specify the online system as the official notice board,.
Get the link from rrs post about the venus the qr codes.