Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Hailing OCS Before the Start?

Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
World Sailing's Sailing Instruction Guide, Appendix LG, includes the following:

12.5 If any part of a boat’s hull is on the course side of the starting line during the two minutes before her starting signal and she is identified, the race committee will attempt to broadcast her sail number on VHF channel. Failure to make a broadcast or to time it accurately will not be grounds for a request for redress. This changes RRS 62.1(a). 

I personally have not seen this in use.  

World Sailing's Race Management Manual does not address it, the RYA's Race Management Guide does not mention it. US Sailing's Race Management Handbook, page 257 "Hailing a boat before the starting signal is bad practice, no matter how far over she may be. Doing so requires changing, in advance in the sailing instructions, not one but two rules, 29.1 and 41. Think about it! Starting is a major part of racing, and to help those not adept at starting will negatively affect those who are."

Add in a penalty (I, Z, U, B) and hailing before the start is not possible in my mind. Which would seem to indicate to competitors if 12.5 is invoked starting penalties will not. be used.

Has anyone seen or used LG 12.5 invoked in a sailing instruction?

Created: 23-Oct-01 18:35

Comments

Calum Polwart
Nationality: United Kingdom
0
Being able to tell the UFD or BFD to get out the way of others (since they are already DSQ) might be nice for the ones they are getting in the way of!




Created: 23-Oct-01 19:38
Calum Polwart
Nationality: United Kingdom
0 
29.1
Why would you need to change 29.1.  the appendix is what happens in T= -2 thought to T=0, if they remain over at T=0, you still need to hoot and display X for 4 minutes... surely?


41
We are back to the age old Questions:

- is this information freely available to all: if it's broadcast on VHF I thought the view was it is (may be an issue if you hail 2 boats and decide not the tell the third)

- is this information from a disinterested source: we generally consider the RC are disinterested. And is it unsolicited - yes - the RC announces it rather than the boat calling 'am I over'
Created: 23-Oct-01 19:46
Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Race Officer
1
In the US, we have Question 118 in the US Sailing Appeals book:

No rule in The Racing Rules of Sailing forbids the race committee from hailing boats before the
starting signal. In fact, Appendix LG, Sailing Instructions Guide, instruction 12.5, provides
sailing instruction language regarding the race committee hailing boats before the starting signal.
In some situations this action will be considered acceptable and appropriate, and in some
situations it will be considered not acceptable or appropriate; i.e., “improper.” One reason given
for hailing is that the race committee’s job is to get the race started; and having general recalls,
and especially multiple general recalls, is frustrating for all the sailors. For these reasons, the
answer to Question 1 depends on the level of the event, the norm for races run by that race
committee, the consistency with which it is applied, what the sailors want or expect, and what
is stated in the sailing instructions or other rules governing the event.

The US Race Management Manual is horribly out of date.  It's last revision was in 2009.  I would not rely on the rule number citations in it.
Created: 23-Oct-01 20:40
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
0

> Add in a penalty (I, Z, U, B) and hailing before the start is not possible in my mind.


Why not? 
I can fairly readily imagine scenarios, ocean races, pursuit races and the like where a precision start has little impact on the result and the RC just wants to get boats away fairly, but nevertheless a penalty is appropriate. In a pursuit, for example, returning boats may interact with the next start a minute later which is undesirable. If you combine that with say a strong tide pushing boats over the line then an early warning that craft are at risk of being over the line may make for a better day for everyone. 
Not appropriate for a standard round the cans race fleet where starting is critical and the fleet happy(ish) with repeated recalls and BFD scores, but there are many other ways to go racing. 

Created: 23-Oct-01 20:44
P
David Sprague
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Measurer
  • International Race Officer
  • Club Judge
0
I have used it a few times and find it very useful to help control fleets that get sucked up by the OCS boat.  When I use Papa Flag it is helpful for all and will help keep an unrulely Uniform/Black flag fleet in check sometimes.
Some classes in their Guidelines add it to the SI's.
In net a possibly good thing.

Created: 23-Oct-01 21:05
Willii Gohl
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
First of all App LE is wrong in this point (Like many other WS documents and rules) . It does not change 62.1a, as this deals with "redress", not with a REQUEST FOR redress, this is done in RRS 60.1b.
To your point: never seen or experienced this
Created: 23-Oct-02 05:48
John Leech
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • Fleet Measurer
  • National Race Officer
1
If you are consistent in using it then it should be fine , once you are fair to all competitors. For dinghy racing I use this flag and it saves General Recall's especially for Optimists, 420's, GP14's, Fireball's and ILCA's
"d. If any part of a boat’s hull is on the course side of the starting line during the two minutes before her starting signal and she is identified, the race committee will attempt to indicate this fact by displaying flag B.  Failure to indicate will not be grounds for a request for redress. This changes rule 62.1(a)."
Created: 23-Oct-05 15:26
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
0
As Question 118 in US Sailing’s Appeal Book points out there is no rule against hailing OCS boats before the start. Is hailing before the start a race management best practice? I think the answer is, it depends.  For an Opti Green fleet event, I can see how hailing OCS before the start could be useful. I think it applies equally to other fleets with sailors new to sailboat racing. But, I don’t think it is a best race management practice for experienced sailors. 
 
I put myself in the place of the competitors.  I’m approaching the line to start with 15-20 seconds to go and I notice several of my rivals are on the course side. Then I hear race committee hail my rivals that they are OCS and they back their sails and move to the prestart side of the line just before the start. RC’s hail cost me several boat lengths over my rivals. I don’t think OCS hails before to start are fair to sailors that do their “homework” by repeatedly checking the line, establishing transit lines and timings to ensure they know exactly where the line is.
 
As for avoiding general recalls if the line is square, the rules give us tools to manage early starters (I, Z, U, B).  After one general recall with a square line, invoke a penalty to control early starters.
Created: 23-Oct-07 15:17
John Leech
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • Fleet Measurer
  • National Race Officer
1
Jerry, my apologies if I was unclear. I never hail a boat over the line . I just use Flag Interco B, then it is up to the boat or boats to figure out whether they are OCS or not. I never identify them. I normally get a few individual recalls when using it but rarely a General Recall.
Created: 23-Oct-11 10:47
Calum Polwart
Nationality: United Kingdom
0
Flag B is an interesting approach.

Never seen it done.  Does it stay up for the whole time or drop when all the culprits have gone out of the triangle?
Created: 23-Oct-11 18:35
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Some useful discussion about V flag and over early in these threads

Calling boats Over Early

Outside assistance by the RC?
Created: 23-Oct-11 21:09
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
1
John L, no apologies necessary.  I was responding in general and just happened to follow your post.  I appreciate you sharing your experience.
Created: 23-Oct-11 23:39
John Leech
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • Fleet Measurer
  • National Race Officer
0
I find with the junior fleets, who sometimes are not aware that they are over the line that the flag is going up and down for the whole two minutes. Less so if at all with senior fleets. But it minimises general recalls. I have completed 6 day regattas without one general recall.
Created: 23-Oct-13 10:58
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