Forum: Share your SI/NOR language.

Scheduled number of races

Scott Deardorff
Nationality: United States
Hello

When Appx J states that the NoR or SI “shall” state or indicate something, is that a requirement?

For instance, Appendix J says the following shall be stated in the NOR and/or SIs: 

  • J1.3(5) “… State the number of races scheduled and the minimum number that must be completed to constitute a series.“
  • J2.1(2)"the schedule of races and the times of warning signals for each class;".  

Does “schedule of races” and “number of races scheduled” combine to mean that the NOR or SI must state the maximum number of races? Or, can the NOR and SI simply state that as many races as possible will be run as long as the docs state a “no start after” time?

Without a defined 'finish line' it can be challenging to strategize your overall fleet position.
Created: 23-May-25 02:52

Comments

John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
The first part of J1.3 gives you the answer you are looking for.  "The notice of race shall include any of the following that will apply ...".  If there is no limit to the number of races then stating the number of races does not apply and you are not required to do it.  The schedule of races be something like "The scheduled time of the warning signal for Race 1 is xxxx.  Subsequent races will be started as soon as practicable after the previous race."  You should also add something like "The number of races to be sailed will be at the sole discretion of the PRO and will not be grounds for redress.  This changes rule 62."  If you were to do such a thing, I would recommend setting a 'no race will be started after' time for each race day.  That way the sailors know what to expect and the RC cannot be accused of trying to get in one more race to influence the outcome.
Created: 23-May-25 03:14
Stuart Dawes
Nationality: Australia
0
A simple question with a simple answer. Shall means it must be done!
Created: 23-May-25 08:47
Simon Winn
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
I am sure that 99 x out of a 100 the PRO’s decision about how many races should be completed will be honourable.  There is always the remote  possibility however that one boat – with a good result so far – would prefer not to have another race, and vice versa another boat – with a poor result – could want more and both might try and persuade the PRO accordingly.

To avoid such ethical possibilities I think it is essential for the Organising Committee to state the number of races that will comprise the event, and the minimum number required to complete the series.

Created: 23-May-25 09:00
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
  1. Yes, Appendices form part of the rules.  Where they use mandatory language ('shall' etc) they must be complied with.  Some Appendices, like Appendix M, however, contain only recommendations, and in some the language if quite optional or conditional.
  2. I agree with John C's analysis of RRS J1 and J2:  if the OA/RC does not intend a specific number of races, then the requirement to state a number does not apply.
  3. However, I also agree with Scott D's comment that without knowing how many races there will be it is difficult to develop and implement a regatta strategy.
  4. It's also important that the race committee/RO have firmly specified the parameters around which to plan the conduct of racing.
  5. I don't agree that it is essential to specify the intended number of races, but I think it is poor practice not to do so.
  6. And, John C, I can't find 'PRO' anywhere in the RRS.  Its the race committee that the RRS makes responsible for the conduct of racing.  I also dislike the button-up boots tone of 'at the sole discretion of ...' .  'The race committee may ... ' will suffice.
Created: 23-May-25 09:47
Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Race Officer
0
Also take note of RRS A1:

A1 NUMBER OF RACES
The number of races scheduled and the number required to be completed to constitute a series shall be stated in the notice of race or sailing instructions.

The Hobie classes in North America have traditionally had an "open-ended" number of races for their major championships.  The wording in the SIs typically takes the form of, "The RC intends to run three to four races per day. There is no maximum number of races."  To facilitate racing strategy on the last day of racing, the RO will / should announce their specific intention that day, taking into consideration the cut-off time.

On a 5-day championship, I've seen as many as 22 races and as few as 4 (4 days lost to no wind).
Created: 23-May-25 11:58
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Thanks Matt,

I think RRS A1 trumps John C's reasoning about 'if applicable'.

So yes, NOR/SI must state the number of races, or use open ended language as you have shown. 
Created: 23-May-25 12:46
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
1
Matt .. that’s a nice catch.  Appx A is customizable under rule 86.1, but an NoR/SI that wants unlimited races should add the sentence, “This changes rule A1”, …. unless all of Appx A is replaced by another scoring system and thus Appx A in totality is replaced (ala rule 90.3)
Created: 23-May-25 12:55
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Angelo,

I think Matt's words are ok.

A 'number' need not be a definite number, as long as the NOR/SI refer to a number, as Matt's does.
Created: 23-May-25 16:13
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
John re: “A 'number' need not be a definite number, as long as the NOR/SI refer to a number, ”

Well my friend you’ve got me doing my best Scooby Doo confused impression on that one.

A1 says “The number of races scheduled …”.  

PS:  my scooby doo ref is my touché for your “button-up boots tone”  before :-) .. what was the other one … “not betting for sheep farms”?
Created: 23-May-25 16:25
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
All sorts of numbers:  whole numbers, rational numbers, imaginary numbers.

I don't think we should be looking for a restrictive application here.
Created: 23-May-25 16:37
Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Race Officer
0
∞ is a number.

In 50+ years of racing in the Hobie classes, there has never been a request for redress based on the number (or lack thereof).  (Knock wood - or fiberglass)
Created: 23-May-25 22:53
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
1
You guys are kill’n me here. :-). Just put in # races = (-16)^0.5 races! (for John’s imaginary #). 

When I review NoR/SI’s, I’m a bit of a stickler for suggesting the OA/RC add the simple 4 word sentence .. “This changes rule ###.”  Appx A is changeable/replaceable.   To me, it’s  simple to properly note the change. 

NOR for a single/[multi] day event with an unstated number of scheduled races:

9.4 The intent is to conduct multiple races [each day].  The scheduled warning for the 1st race [each day] is at #### hrs.  No warning shall be made [each day] after #### hrs [, except on the last day no warning shall be made after #### hrs].
 
9.5 There is not a set-number of races scheduled.  The RC may run as many races as practicable based on weather/sea-conditions within the times stated in NOR 9.4.  This changes rule A1. 

To me, the above makes it clear to all (RC and competitors) the bounds under which the regatta will be conducted … in an upfront manner. 

PS: I moved this thread to the SI/NOR language category. 
Created: 23-May-26 12:56
Sue Reilly
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Sorry Angelo - I have to agree with Matt. With the exception of 1 area that I have been to or National or World championships, I never state a hard and fast number.  Its as many as practical with a cutoff time on the last day  And I have never had a problem.
Created: 23-May-31 15:57
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Sue …nothing to be sorry about. I have no problem with regattas that do not define a set number of races.  I think that it’s simple enough to let everyone know the parameters under which the RC will operate. 
Created: 23-Jun-04 19:48
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