Forum: Race Officers

Gates and the direction competitors pass through them

Jim Archer
Nationality: United States
Interesting debate arose on a boat I was sailing yesterday. There was essentially a race down a channel and back, and a particular set of red/green channel markers were to be treated as a "gate" we needed to pass through. Of course, this meant go right leaving a green to starboard or port leaving a red to port. The SIs listed the course with that as a "gate." 

One of the other sailors on the boat insisted that the SIs were vague and that as such we could pass through the gate in either direction; from outside the channel, he wanted to round a green to port reentering the channel. I thought this was ridiculous and we ended up doing it my way. After the race he grabbed the SIs and tried to show me his point. I still disagree with him, I thought it was clear. 

But just for the heck of it I tried to find something in RRS about gates and how to round them. There is no definition for gate. So, what governs the direction a competitor passes through a gate? Other than common sense of course. 


UPDATE:

Here are the SIs, in this case "Pursuit Class Circle Six" starting on page 11. 

https://yachtscoring.com/event_documents/15538/CRW-SIs2023.pdf


Created: 23-Apr-24 17:55

Comments

John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
I don't see anything either.  What did the SI say?
Created: 23-Apr-24 18:10
Jim Archer
Nationality: United States
0
I updated the original post with a link to the SIs. 
Created: 23-Apr-24 18:17
Graham Louth
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
  • International Judge
  • National Race Officer
5
Read the definition of Sail the Course, in particular: "(c) passes between the marks of a gate from the direction of the course from the previous mark".
Created: 23-Apr-24 18:25
Brent OKeeffe
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
0
@graham, you beat me to it... LOL
Created: 23-Apr-24 18:31
Anthony Pelletier
Nationality: United States
0
Graham mentions the "sail the course" definition, which has been changed in the 2021-24 version. Gate is no longer in the new version. 
I think the course diagrams are clear enough in the SIs. There might be a problem in that the description of the marks does not match what you said. So long as that change to the SIs was made clear as described in part 3 of the SIs, I think you are in the right. 
How a gate is to be treated generally has to be in the SI's either in the course diagram or written, especially now that 28.1c is gone.
Created: 23-Apr-24 18:34
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
@Anthony - by 'new version' do you mean 2025-28?  It looks like what Graham referred to is in the 2021-24 version.  I'm confused.

Created: 23-Apr-24 18:39
Steve Harris
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
2
It's clearly in the 2021-24 version. (Screenshot below from this site today)
Has anyone seen 2025-2028 rules yet?  Seems early to have any draft versions out there.
Untitled-1.png 38.1 KB
Created: 23-Apr-24 18:44
Carrick Woodfield
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
1
According to the current RRS (2021-2024) the definition of Sail the Course part c states ..." passes between the marks of a gate from the direction of the course from the previous mark. "  so this would make it clear that the boats must pass between the gates (through the channel) from the previous mark.
Created: 23-Apr-24 18:50
Anthony Pelletier
Nationality: United States
0
Now I'm confused. This is from the version on my phone. 
IMG_0295.jpeg 20 KB
Created: 23-Apr-24 18:51
Jim Archer
Nationality: United States
0
@Anthony I agree the diagram in the SIs is clear, but he hung his hat on the fact that the arrows don't definitively go through the gate. One could make an argument that to could round either end in either direction. Again, I would never argue that, but I'm surprised it's this hard to prove. I'll refer my friend to the "Sail the Course" definition in 2021-24 version. It will be interesting in 2025! 

Thanks everyone!
Created: 23-Apr-24 18:55
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
1
Anthony - That is the new rule 28 but what we are looking at is the definition for Sail the Course.
Created: 23-Apr-24 18:55
Anthony Pelletier
Nationality: United States
1
Thanks. I remember that they took out stuff they thought was redundant. So, 28 "Sailing the race" used to read just like the definition of "sail the course," and now has been altered. But the definition remains the same. Thanks for the clarification. I apologize for my mistake. And, given that, I think it's clear that Jim is correct. 

Created: 23-Apr-24 19:07
Jim Archer
Nationality: United States
0
So then there will be no change in the effect of RRS on this issues after the next revision?

Created: 23-Apr-24 19:08
Anthony Pelletier
Nationality: United States
0
I have no information regarding changes in the next version (well, sort of. I have seen some versions that are being trialed). 
The screenshot I showed was comparing rule 28 in the 17-20 and the 21-24 versions. As noted, it was changed to delete the reference to rounding a gate. But the 21-24 definitions still include that line. 
I understand their desire to remove redundant sentences. However, in my defense, it's a bit confusing to change one occurrence of a sentence and leave the other one identical. 
Created: 23-Apr-24 19:12
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
1
If I recall correctly "Sail the Course" was a new definition for 2021-2024. They basically moved the string rule from RRS 28 to the Definitions.
Created: 23-Apr-24 19:37
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Tim … I think that’s a simple way to remember and think about the change. It did cause a couple issues at first where regattas that relied upon the ability to change the string-rule for their specific needs of their regattas, now we’re blocked from doing so (rule 28 is not restricted from change by rule 86, but Definitions certainly are.
Created: 23-Apr-25 05:02
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