Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing
Sailing past the leeward gate
Barry Agar
Nationality: New Zealand
0
Radio Sailing Boat A clear ahead of Boat B passes the leeward port gate mark to Port and continues past by 3-4 boat lengths turns to Port, Heads into wind then still inside the zone tacks onto starboard back towards the mark. Meanwhile Boat B has almost completed a close port mark rounding and heading close haulled on port, but stern has not yet passed the mark.
Collision occurs. A is on starboard, B on port
Question does A have right of way.
Collision occurs. A is on starboard, B on port
Question does A have right of way.
Comments
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John
Until Boat A (Blue) passes through head-to-wind she is right of way (12 initially and 11 once she turns) and entitled to mark room (18.2(b)). Once she crosses head to wind rule 18.2(d) applies, which only turns off 18.2(b) & (c) as she is the boat entitled to mark-room. Boat A is keep clear per rule 13 until she completes her tack and then has to give Boat B room initially to keep clear under 15. Once 15 turns off, then rules 10 & 16 apply and Boat B is the keep clear boat.
So now we need to decide if 18 applies by looking at 18.1 again. In this case the first sentence of 18.1 is true. So what about the exceptions? 18.1(a) doesn't apply as I don't think the boats are on a beat to windward at this mark even though that is how they leave the mark. I don't think 18.1(b) applies as neither boat has to tack. 18.1(c)&(d) easily do not apply.
Let's leave off the last sentence of 18.1 for the moment as we don't know for sure if mark-room has been given yet.
I think that rule 18 still applies between the boats as none of the exceptions in 18.1 is true. Since 18.2(d) turned off 18.2(b)&(c) that leaves us with 18.2(a). In this case the boats are not overlapped as they are on opposite tacks and not more than 90 degrees to the wind so rule 18.2(a) does not apply. 18.2(e)&(f), 18.3 & 18.4 also don't apply.
So, neither boat is entitled to mark room and the exoneration that comes with it and it is simply a rule 10 port/starboard. This means the last sentence of 18.1 is moot at this point as mark-room was given until Boat B was no longer required to give it. The next thing you have to decide is how the course changes by both boats come into play and when was Boat B no longer keeping clear of Boat A and what were Boat B's options vis-vis the mark since it is unseamanlike to hit a mark or anything else for that matter.
For me, it is most likely that Boat A broke 16 & 14 and Boat B broke 10 & 14 but is exonerated for breaking 10. As long as there is no damage or neither boat is disabled, neither would be penalized for breaking 14.
I also agree with Phil that the drawing does not depict the text description in the OP, which has the boat sailing to the bottom edge of the 4BL zone, tacking and turning back. Given the OP scenario, it would seem that Boat A would finish its tack on STB 2+BL’s from the mark.
Thx your graphics. Being a gate the approach down wind was in you drawing more from 11 o'clock.
At the time A entered zone B was 1.5 lengths behind.
A sailed well past mark 3,4,5 length hard to tell.
Like all the analysis and at the time this situation generated a heap of discussion
Barry
That is boat B dilemma.
Is there a conclusive rule
Take a look at WS Case 146.
With 18 off, Boat B has no mark-room to “sail to the mark” or “round the mark as necessary to sail the course” so B needs to steer away and keep clear from A if she can.
Given the OP description, it would seem more likely to me that Boat B’s bow was not quite to the mark when Boat A completed her tack, and therefore Boat B probably had the ability to fall off and away from the mark and the oncoming Boat A
Thank you for your deliberations and well constructed replies.
In radio sailing down wind at 4-5 knots the 4 boat length zone margin arrives in about 1 second after passing the mark
From 50 to75 meters away where skippers are trying to control their yacht exact placements cannot be known.
Given not explicitly established the outcome would be no foul to either A or B ?
When Boat A completed her tack, had Boat B reached the mark and already started her turn? Or had Boat B yet to reached the mark? Also, when A completed the tack, how far apart were the boats?
No other boats
At point where A tacked onto starboard B had turned and started rounding the mark.
No other boats
At point where A tacked onto starboard B had turned and started rounding the mark.
When A completed her tack B was half way round Mark separation about 2 meters
When A finishes tack, A becomes ROW and rule 15 initially gives B room to keep clear, B is trapped by the mark to windward at this “initial point” and can’t turn back down into A, so her way to keep clear is to finish rounding and getting pass the mark on port tack.
Room includes room to comply with B’s part 2 and rule 31 obligations.
Disagree. A mark is not necessarily an obstruction.
See Match Race Call D2, and rule 19.1, which specifically refers to a mark that is not an obstruction.
A mark may, by its nature be an obstruction, for example a large steel navigation buoy.
Agree boats are not overlapped and rule 19 does not apply even if the mark is an obstruction.
B's protection is rules 15 and 16: A must initially give B room to keep clear without touching the mark, which is unseamanlike, then, not change course so that B cannot keep clear without touching the mark.
At that point yellow is the inside boat. Does 18.2(a) apply to give her MR?
This will be so if the boats are overlapped. The term overlap can apply to boats on opposite tacks when 18 applies between them. From the opening words of 18.1 it seems that 18 applies between the boats.
From the diagram yellow seems to be forward of blue’s transom at #4 and #5. Therefore it seems the boats are overlapped, yellow is sailing within her MR, and she is exonerated.
Do we all agree that the effect of the last sentence of rule 18.1 is to prevent mark-room from flip flopping from A, the boat initially entitled to mark room, to B (which would have been the case before 2021)?
Have we als got some sort of agreement that mark-room has been given when A is able to sail her proper course without being affected by the mark?
If we agree with that, it is possible that A's proper course @3 is to tack, and if so she remains entitled to mark room through her tack until @5 minus delta, as diagrammed, just before she reaches her close hauled course on stbd.
As diagrammed, @5 a number of things happen simultaneously:
A could argue that @5 minus delta jus before she reached close hauled, her course was still affected by the mark, she had not yet been given all the mark-room she was entitled to, she, at that point was not keeping clear of B as required by rule 13, but was exonerated by rule 43.1(b), and B did not give mark-room and broke rule 18.2. That might fly, but A would need to curtail her tack and show she did all she could to avoid contact, otherwise she also goes under rule 14.
However you slice it, you just can't T bone another boat an A goes for rule 14, no matter what.
Putting it very simply A took big risks by tacking so close and to leeward of B, regardless of th mark as follows
Otherwise she would have been wise to stand on on her port tack until she was able to tack clean on B, or was at least sure she would be able to give B room to keep clear when she tacked.
John, I wouldn’t agree with that. Mark room doesn’t use proper course (yet .. until if/when Test Rule 18 is adopted), but it uses a slightly different wording “necessary to sail the course”.
Assuming the next mark is straight-up off the top of her page, it is necessary for Blue to at least come up to a close hauled course on port tack and start making progress to windward on a beat to windward to sail the course. It may be desirable and get her to the finish line faster (current, wind, etc) but it is not necessary for her to sail the course that she tack and do that on STB tack.
IMO, Blue has been given the MR she is entitled to after she passes the mark by more than a BL and as soon as she reaches a close hauled course on port (prior to her tack) where she can start sailing her beat to windward (Blue #4 in diagram). IMO, the last sentence of 18.1 turns off 18 at that time.
The definition of mark-room lists the elements of MR. When all of these items have been satisfied, then the last sentence of 18.1 turns off Rule 18 (“Rule 18 no longer applies between boats…”). Tacking, 18.2(d), turns off 18.2( b) and (c), but not 18 as a whole. IMO, Blue was given all the elements of MR at BLUE #4. Sailing outside of the MR does not turn off rule 18, but it would call into question if the boat entitled to MR is entitled to exoneration under 43.1(b) if they broke a rule while sailing outside of their MR.
It is very important to be careful when you use the RRS defined-term “proper course”, and only use it when you can find a rule that uses the term that applies to the situation you are examining. In my experience, the over application of PC is one of the most common mistakes made by the average sailor, and as a new judge, you will spend a lot of time explaining this to folk.
What rule do you feel applies after Blue tacks that uses the term “proper course”? We both agree it’s not 18, so what then? Are you making the argument that after Blue has tacked, she is sailing on the next leg to windward and thus rule 23.2 applies? Rule 23.2 uses “proper course”, Blue’s proper course could be to sail on starboard and Yellow seems to sailing hers, so neither boat would be charged with interference.
There is a well known exception to that with a boat sailing by the lee, but, yea, the preamble of Part 2/Section A “defines” ROW-boat as “the other boat” than the keep-clear boat. If you have a keep-clear boat, you have a ROW boat.
No, 18 can apply between boats, but because of their actions inside the zone, the only remaining 18 rule that can convey MR is 18.2(a) and that won’t apply unless they are overlapped. The most common example of this is to imagine 2 boats on a beat to windward enter the zone on port below the port layline. They both tack onto starboard inside the zone, but the boat ahead completes their tack before the trailing boat. While they are on opposite tacks, 18.1(a) turns off 18. Once they are both on the same tack, 18 applies again, but unless there is an overlap established, neither boat is entitled to mark-room.
No, see above and this is the reason the last sentence of 18.1 was added.
I don’t think that was the intent of this post .. and again be very conscious about how and when you use “proper course”
I can go with that.
Thanks for taking the time to thoroughly respond to my comments. I'm going to take another stab at this, which may just bury me deeper in a hole or help me to climb out of it.
With these statements, you indicate that IYO Blue has turned off Rule 18 by virtue of coming to close hauled on port tack. Am I getting caught up in thinking that it is the tack to starboard that turns off Blue's entitlement to MR but does not turn off 18 as a whole, as you point out. This is the point (@3) that I think Yellow acquires MR as, I believe, she is overlapped inside of Blue.
Def Overlap, [These terms] apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them.
I contend that 18.2(a) does give Yellow MR. Yellow is not behind the line abeam from Blue's transom.
My thinking around the topic of 'proper course' is that all boats have a proper course anywhere on the race course (after the start signal of course) and is the course chosen to be sailed in the absence of other competitors (good, bad or otherwise). It is the RRS that occasionally use the term, mostly not, to either allow you to sail your 'proper course', prohibit you from sailing your 'proper course' or oblige you to sail your 'proper course'. Maybe the term 'preferred course' would be more appropriate when referring to actions on the race course when talking about situations that involve rules that do not explicitly use the term in the rule governing the situation.
With that in mind, @ position 3 Yellow is confronted with the decision of whether to turn and sail her 'preferred course' which she believes is within her MR privileges or to sail beyond the mark and duck a starboard tack boat that is sailing some other 'preferred course' and hail "protest". Remember that these are Radio Controlled boats and all of this is happening (with any wind at all) in a matter of 2-4 seconds.
If we go back to applying RRS 15 and/or 16.1 to this situation and Yellow is at, say position 3.3 she would be pretty committed to making her turn around the mark, with or without MR, and at 2.9 not so much.
I still think Blue made a pretty "bone headed" maneuver in the zone of the leeward mark and Yellow is suffering for it.
Thanks for listening.
For the first part of your questions which contain the above, I’m sugggesting that you look at Rule 18 in the following way:
Rule 18.1 tells us when Rule 18 applies. The 1st sentence of 18.1 casts a simple, broad net of when it does apply …
“Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone”.
The remainder of 18.1 is broken into 2 groups. 18.1(a)-(d) are situations that, though the first sentence of 18.1 is true, 18 “does not apply”. “Does not” is a present-tense statement and specifically, whether 2 boats satisfy 18.1(a) can (and often does) change from moment to moment while the 1st sentence of 18.1 remains true. In other words, 18.1(a) can turn 18 on/off/on/off depending on the actions of the boats (while at least one of them remains inside the zone).
The last sentence (LS) of 18.1 is different. 18.1 LS uses the phase “no longer applies”. 18.1LS is a one-way “off switch” which is dependent on one test, “… when mark-room has been given.” A presumption of 18.1LS is that MR is owed to a boat.
So, when has MR been given? Well, we look at what MR is and if its elements have been given, 18.1LS turns off 18 and it no longer applies.
So, did Blue have room to ..
Blue sails past the mark by more than a BL and then rounds-up to windward onto port. Assuming the next mark is above the top of the page (and the wind is coming from that direction), to sail the course it is necessary for Blue to start the next leg which is a beat to windward, which Blue reaches as soon as she reaches a close-hauled course on port.
Thus all the elements of MR have been given at Blue#4, therefore 18 “no longer applies”. Since 18 no longer applies, we never get to the question of 18.4.
Proper Course
In regard to proper course, what I am suggesting is that --- thinking about a boat’s proper course outside of a specific rule application --- is a bad habit to get into, as it can lead one to casually use the term when it’s not applicable or convey the impression of rights to, or obligations/limits upon, a boat when none exist. In other words, IMO, it’s not really helpful or informative to think about about a single boat sailing around the race course by itself sailing its proper course.
IMO it’s a better habit to imagine that a boat, as long as it starts, sails the course and finishes, it can sail where it wants unless there is a specific rule limiting it, and there are very few rules which use/refer to "proper course".
Suggested process:
…. Not the other way around.
All the above is just my opinion and what I’ve found is helpful in how I look at the rules. I hope it might be helpful. - Ang