Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

5 overlapped boats rounding a leeward mark

Michael Sporer
Nationality: United States of America

The video of the event shot from Green can be seen here: https://youtu.be/EcYC0ACgmBE

This is shot from a gopro with a very wide angle lense, the distances (depth wise) are much closer than they appear in the video.
The boats in the animated gif have a length of approximately 3x beam; the actual boats are 24' long and 4' wide so 6x beam.

Questions:
1. at position 1, when yellow enters the zone which boats are entitled to room?
2. As blue, green and red each enter the zone, while overlapped, they each establish inside rights on the boat immediately outside of them, right? or did they have it already from when yellow entered?
3. Yellow surges ahead inside the zone, to clear ahead, is yellow still obligated to give room to blue? Did yellow fail to give adequate room?
4. Yellow is the first boat to gybe onto port. Does yellow have any rights at all if the others are are starboard?
5. Did green have rights to go inside yellow? If so would green have fouled red by doing so? 
5. when Green and Red made contact at position 2 was green giving red enough room?

Any other observations or advice?
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5around the leeward pin 210727.gif 15.6 MB
Created: 21-Jul-28 13:03

Comments

Graham Louth
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • National Race Officer
0
This appears to be a real and recent incident. Are you asking questions on this forum in preparation for a hearing, or with a view to appealing a protest committee decision?
Created: 21-Jul-28 13:18
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Thanks Graham.  Usually I ask that question off-line before approving/releasing the new thread, but I did not this time. 

PS. Confirmed this is not subject to any PC/Appeal process. 
Created: 21-Jul-28 13:24
Edward Post
Nationality: United States of America
0
1, As I understand the overlap rule it applies to pairs of boats as the lead boat enters the zone.  From the diagrams it appears that as they enter the zone Blue is entitled to room from Yellow, At that point no one else is in the zone. 2,  Once each boat enters it appears Green is entitled to room from Blue, Red is entitled to room from Green and Turquoise is not overlapped with anyone.  3, Yes, Yellow must still give Blue room.  4, No, Yellow must give room to all boats but Turquoise  5, Yes, but Green must give room to Red.  6, Red was overtaking Green prior to entering the zone and must keep clear but once Red entered the zone it must give room to Red. The foul depends on how close Red was to Green as Red entered the zone.  If Green could not bear off without contacting Red, then Red fouled Green.  It doesn't appear that Red gave sufficient room and forced contact.  .   Blue was entitled to room from Yellow, but if yellow was able to surge ahead gybe and turn without forcing Blue to change course there was no foul.  
Created: 21-Jul-28 14:04
Werner Esswein
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
  • National Race Officer
0
Y and B are overlapped, Y and G are overlapped because B overlap both; R overlaps G and G overlaps Y, so R overlaps Y; T overlaps R and R overlaps Y So T overlaps Y . So Y has to give MR to B, G, R and T.
Created: 21-Jul-28 14:21
John Christman
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
1
Use 18.2(e) to resolve the question as to the overlap status of Turquoise.  In position 1 they are clearly overlapped.  Between position 1 and position 2 there is reasonable doubt whether the overlap was broken or not so they remain overlapped.

Remember - mark room does not transfer any rights to a boat entitled to it.  Having mark room allows a boat to sail to and around the mark and be exonerated for (almost, see 43.1(b)) any rule broken while doing so.  Anything done outside of that is subject to the normal right of way rules and limitations.

Inside/Outside and entitlement to mark room are determined as the first of each pair of boats enters the zone, so:

  • (Q1) When Yellow enters the zone she owes mark room to everyone;
  • (Q2) When Blue enters the zone she owes mark room to everyone except Yellow
    When Green enters the zone she owes mark room to everyone except Yellow and Blue
    When Red enters the zone she owes mark room only to Turquoise
  • (Q3) Yellow still owes Blue (and Green, Red, and Turquoise) mark room, as long as Blue can sail to the mark and around it, Yellow has given her room.
  • (Q4) Yellow is on port and the other boats are on starboard, Yellow must keep clear per rule 10.
  • (Q5) Yellow owes Green mark room which would be the room Green needs to round the mark and the room for Green to give anyone she owes room to.  So, yes, Green could have gone inside Yellow and based on the diagram Yellow did not give that room.  As long as Green gave Red the mark room owed to Red, then Green does not break a rule w.r.t. Red.
  • (Q6) This gets a little complicated as you have to look at multiple rules.
    • In addition to being an overlapped outside boat required to give mark room, Green is also a windward boat and obligated to keep clear of Red under rule 11. 
    • Blue is windward and obligated to keep clear of both Green and Red and also give them both mark room.
    • Mark room is the room to sail to the mark and around it, Red was not sailing within that room.
    • While they are an inside overlapped right of way boat, Blue, Green, Red, & Turquoise are required to sail no further from the mark than their proper courses until they gybe, Rule 18.4.
    • Per rule 16 when Red alters course she must give Green the room needed to keep clear.  When Green to alters course to keep clear of Red at the same time she must give Blue the room needed to continue to keep clear.
    • Blue could not turn up without swinging her stern towards Green so Green cannot alter course and give Blue the room to keep clear.
    • So...
      • Red breaks 18.4 (she was sailing further from the mark than her proper course), 16 (she did not give Green the room to keep clear when she altered course), and 14 (she could have reasonable avoided the contact).
      • Green breaks 11 (she was windward of Red) but is exonerated by 43.1(a) (she was compelled to break 11 by Red's breach of 16).  Green does not break 14 as it was not reasonably possible for her to avoid the contact.
      • Blue breaks no rules.

Created: 21-Jul-28 16:55
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Michael, your Question #2 is the key for unlocking this.  Here is your Q2 again..

 2. As blue, green and red each enter the zone, while overlapped, they each establish inside rights on the boat immediately outside of them, right? or did they have it already from when yellow entered? 

As has been said, the mark-room determination is made between 2 boats .. BUT .. it often involves multiple boats to come to that determination.

In your scenario, Yellow enters the zone first.  Therefore, your 1st round of analysis will determine mark-room involving Yellow and other boats.  It will be Yellow v Blue/Green/Red/Turq individually.

Round 1: Yellow v B/G/R/T

  1. Blue is inside/overlapped with Yellow
    1. = Yellow owes Blue mark-room
  2. Green is inside/overlapped with Blue.  Blue is overlapped with both Yellow and Green and Blue is between both Yellow and Green, therefore Green is overlapped/inside of Yellow
    1. = Yellow owes Green mark-room
  3. Red is inside/overlapped with Green.  Green is also overlapped with Yellow (see 2). Green is between Yellow and Red, therefore Red is overlapped/inside of Yellow
    1. = Yellow owes Red mark-room
  4. Turq is inside/overlapped with Red.  Red is also overlapped with Yellow (see 3).  Red is between Yellow and Turq, therefore Turq is overlapped/inside of Yellow
    1. = Yellow owes Turq mark-room

  • Round 1 .. Yellow owes all the other boats mark-room.

(Also note that all the boats are approaching the mark, the inside boats are to leeward of the outside boats.   The rules of part 2 coexist with Rule 18, therefore Rule 11 still applies as limited by Rule 18.4.)

Round 2: Blue v Green/Red/Turq as Blue enters the zone (it appears from the animation, that Red breaks her overlap with Turq, as Blue enters the zone .. so let's assume that as a fact)

The same process as above, you progress the scenario forward until the next boat reaches the zone. We will conclude that since Red broke her overlap with Turq as Blue entered the zone ... 

  • Round 2: Blue owes mark-room to Green and Red, but not Turq
  • Round 3: Green owes mark-room to Red, but not Turq
  • Round 4: Red doesn't owe mark-room to any boat, but is owed mark-room from all other boats.

So, all the above is to answer your Questions #1 and #2.

If we assume, that Red does not break overlap with Turq when Blue, Red and Green enter the zone, then Turq is owed room from everyone.
Created: 21-Jul-28 17:13
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Interpolating the speeds and relative positions of red and turquoise between positions 1 and 2, turquoise still had an overlap with red when red entered the zone.
Turquoise has mark room rights over everybody throughout the rounding, regardless of whether her overlap is later broken or a new one is established.
(I really like question 2: "thinking cap" time!)
Created: 21-Jul-28 17:27
John Christman
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Phillip - don't discount the usefulness of 18.2(e) here - it makes these kinds of things much easier, especially in real life!  Take the last known condition where there was certainty and use that (position 1 in the diagram).  I am sure that the Red and Turquoise boats had no idea whether they were actually overlapped or not when Red entered the zone in the actual incident.  Too many people (read juries) get all wrapped up in trying to decide this when no one was in a position to see the overlap much less know where the zone actually is.  In an actual protest hearing what you generally want to do is get the last point when the competitors agreed to whether they were overlapped or not and then use 18.2(e) to say that is how they entered the zone.  It will save you hours in a protest hearing.  It doesn't matter how far away from the mark that this is.  I have seen this be as much as a half-mile!
Created: 21-Jul-28 17:42
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
So...
  • Red breaks 18.4 (she was sailing further from the mark than her proper course), 16 (she did not give Green the room to keep clear when she altered course), and 14 (she could have reasonable avoided the contact).
  • Green breaks 11 (she was windward of Red) but is exonerated by 43.1(a) (she was compelled to break 11 by Red's breach of 16).  Green does not break 14 as it was not reasonably possible for her to avoid the contact.

I'm not sure I see this the same way, especially watching the video from about 0:30 which looks to be around position 2 in the diagram (believe orange POV boat in the video = Green in the diagram).

Red has leeward ROW and looks to be trying to stay hot and set up for a wide-tight tactical rounding, which she's entitled to do. She's also giving mark-room to Turquoise as she's required to do. All of these would be consistent with Red's proper course so I don't think she breaks 18.4 unless she delays her gybe and sails Green past the mark.

When Red establishes her overlap it looks like there's there's plenty of room for Green to come up and keep clear. Doesn't look like Red really starts to luff until she's pretty well advanced on Green. Green doesn't appear to be looking at Red and never alters course in response to Red's luff. Green could also help avoid contact by trimming her main in. It doesn't look to me like Red breaks either 15 or 16.

Blue to windward gives plenty of room to both Green and Red.

So I think at position 2 Red breaks 14 and is exonerated as ROW. Green breaks 11 and 14 and on valid protest is DSQ. 

But between positions 2 and 3 Red fails to give mark-room to Turquoise, so on valid protest DSQ Red there. I'd see that as a separate incident from Red vs. Green.
Created: 21-Jul-28 17:57
John Christman
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Tim - I was not looking at the video at all, just the diagram.  There is so much you can't see in the video, I would not put much credence on it.  Let's assume that the diagram is the one endorsed by the PC and that their conclusions are consistent with it.

The video shows different amounts of room than the diagram, so I can see how your conclusions are different and are reasonable.

I disagree with your conclusions on Red and Turquoise.  In the diagram it looks to me that Red has given Turquoise room to sail to the mark and around it.  Turquoise is consistently astern of Red from Position 2 through 5 where she gains a small windward overlap and by then 18 would be off as mark room has been given.
Created: 21-Jul-28 18:30
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
John, I see your point re Turquoise. I think it would depend on testimony. If Turquoise fell behind and couldn't get to Red then I agree Red is clean. If Turquoise says she wanted to go inside and Red shut the door on her then I think Red gets penalized.
Created: 21-Jul-28 20:25
Michael Sporer
Nationality: United States of America
0
Thank you all for the detailed responses. BTW, Tim Hohmann is correct about the position of B2 in the diagram. B2 should have been located closer to Yellow and farther from Green as seen in the video (and in reality).  
So I updated the diagram below.
Very helpful to allow me to understand the situation and avoid this issue in the future. 
So, in summary,
  • Green (me) had the ability to give more room to Red and should have. Green would be DSQ if protested.
  • Yellow could have been protested for failing to give room or Port tacking. (right?)
  • If Green had opted to go inside Yellow then Green would have been obligated to give room to Turquoise. (assuming Red was clear ahead by that time)

210727.jpg 715 KB
Created: 21-Jul-29 05:28
Reinhard Schanda
Nationality: Austria
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
HI Michael,

Here is my take on your questions:

1. at position 1, when yellow enters the zone which boats are entitled to room? All of them.
2. As blue, green and red each enter the zone, while overlapped, they each establish inside rights on the boat immediately outside of them, right? or did they have it already from when yellow entered? They did had it when Yellow entered the zone ("if boats are overlapped when the first of them reches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark room").
3. Yellow surges ahead inside the zone, to clear ahead, is yellow still obligated to give room to blue? Yes, under Rule 18.2(c))(1). Did yellow fail to give adequate room? Yes. Case 95 says: When a boat is required to give another boat mark-room, the space she must give includes space for the other boat to comply with rule 31.
4. Yellow is the first boat to gybe onto port. Does yellow have any rights at all if the others are are starboard? No, she has to keep clear under Rule 10 und must give mark-room under Rule 18.2(b) to all other boats involved.
5. Did green have rights to go inside yellow? No. If so would green have fouled red by doing so? Yes.
5. when Green and Red made contact at position 2 was green giving red enough room? No. Because Green should have given Red enough room to enable her to give mark-room to Turquoise.
Created: 21-Sep-06 16:26
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