| Rules | ||
|---|---|---|
| Racing Rules of Sailing for 2013-2016; Version 6 | December 2015 | |
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| Racing Rules of Sailing for 2021-2024 | December 2020 | |
| Prescriptions | ||
| Australia | July 2017 | |
| Canada | November 2019 | |
| Great Britain - RYA has declined to grant a license for prescriptions and cases. | November 2019 | |
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| Cases | ||
| World Sailing Cases | February 2022 | |
| World Sailing Q&As | March 2022 | |
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| Manuals | ||
| World Sailing Judges Manual | December 2019 | |
Assuming red was on starboard when green entered the zone, rule 18 was off between them. When red tacked onto port, 18.2b did not apply so red had an 18.2a overlap and entitled to mark room, provided green and blue were able to manoeuvre to give it starting from when the overlap was established.
The answer to the second question is, it depends. Was Green overlapped inside Red when Red reached the zone? If so, then she's entitled to room; If not, then Red continues to have mark-room all the way around the mark.
She can't be both entitled to mark-room by RRS 18.2(a) and disentitled to it by RRS 18.2(f) at the same time.
I think the answer to the question is No, Red is not entitled to mark-room because of RRS 18.2(f).
Why is it assumed that green and blue are not able to give mark-room?
They simply can bear-away...
As I said, I'm I missing something?
Which direction will Green’s stern move if she changes course to starboard?
image.png 19.6 KB
Gotcha: Not @5 (and tricked myself in my question to Rene).
R became overlapped [inside G] when she passed head to wind from starboard to port @3 or 3+delta, way before she reached her close hauled course @5.
So we're not judging time and space enough for G and B to give R mark-room on the space at point 3 in Catalan's image or @5 in Kims.
@3, R is more than 1 BL from the mark. G is nearly 2 BL from the mark, and B just over 2 BL from the mark.
That's starting to look like quite enough space, if G acts promptly.
If we started at your @5, I would find this hard to agree with, but @3, see above.
Yup, there will be only seconds in it. G needs to act promptly to begin changing course and 'inducing' B to bear away to let her do so.
This is a mark rounding situation rather than a beat to windward, so 18.1(a) is irrelevant.
The proper course for Red includes a tack, so 18.1(b) applies and 18 is off.
OR
At position 1, Red clearly has an outside overlap on Green and Blue and has to give mark room to both. Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap
Rule 18 is applicable and 18.2(c)(2) applies. Although Red has established a new overlap inside the boats entitled to mark room (because she was the outside overlapped boat when she entered the zone) she shall give that [those] boat[s] room to sail her proper course, while overlapped. In this situation a proper course does not include bearing away to allow Red to pass between Green and the mark.
These boats certainly appear to be on a beat to windward. See World Sailing Case 125 for an interpretation of "on a beat to windward", but even using ordinary language, both boats are on a close-hauled course to the mark, so it's a beat to windward in anybody's book. For that reason, when the boats are on opposite tacks at positions 1 and 2, rule 18.1(a) applies and rule 18.2 does not. For that reason we don't have to look at rule 18.1(b) at all, but because you bring it up, I'll point out that it doesn't apply. Rule 18.1(b) says "[Rule 18 does not apply] between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack" (emphasis added). In your scenario, the proper course for all three boats is to tack at the mark, so rule 18.1(b) does not apply.
In any case, in positions 1 and 2, when red and the other two boats are on opposite tacks, rule 18 does not apply to Red and Blue, nor to Red and Green. So Red does not have an outside overlap on Green and Blue (see the last sentence of the definition Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap) at position 1. So Red is not required to give Green and Blue mark-room and rule 18.2(c)(2) does not apply.
You say:
Gotcha: Not @5 (and tricked myself in my question to Rene).
R became overlapped [inside G] when she passed head to wind from starboard to port @3 or 3+delta, way before she reached her close hauled course @5.
Well, the tricky part for Red at Pos 3 or 3+delta is that she (R) is a tacking boat required to keep clear of G and B until she is on close haul course (on STRB).
What you are saying is: R has Inside overlap on G, leave B out of it for a moment, but has to keep clear of G by R 13.
I can hear the conversation Red @ 3+delta to Green: " I am inside overlapped and will need some mark room."
Green back to Red: " Roger!. You are tacking boat needing to keep clear of other boats. Ask me again when you are on close haul. If I can give it to you, I will.
Kim
Happily corrected. It seems to boil down to whether, as has been discussed above, Green and Blue are given time and are able to give mark room once Red becomes ROW. Then conditions and sizes of boats come into play. Green has to have been on a close hauled course so as not to sail outside the corridor to which she is entitled. Yes, the overlap is established at some point very soon after position 3. But, as Kim says immediately above, until 13 is off Green and Blue don't need to consider the need to give mark room. As Red is about 20% of a boat length at position 5, I'd be inclined to say that doesn't give G and B the ability to give mark room. But I'd (usually) only be one of three, or five, people looking at it.
BTW, the latest copy of the Case Book I have is WS 2013, revised 2021. I can't find any version on the WS site at the moment, so if you have a link to anything more recent please let me know. In my version it's Case 132, and there isn't a Case 150.
I'm not much interested in shouting matches on the water.
Do you agree that @3 + delta in your diagram:
So what's the consequence if R breaks RRS 13?
Seems to me that Red is keep clear continuously one way (rule 13) or another (rule 11) after 3+. Rule 13 doesn’t include any special rule 18 delay mechanism (though competitors might think that it does).
And what happens to a boat that breaks a rule of Section A while sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled?
I am always in favor of civilized conversation on the water. It beats debating for hours in the “room”.
Now, if you check my previous post, you will find that my position is dependent on the conditions.
Kim
I'm not sure whether you're playing the role of the skipper of G, or of a judge, and I'm not sure if we're arguing at cross purposes.
It would help me if you, and other posters responded to my specific questions:
In KIm's diagram do you agree that @3 + delta:
How is R reaching her close hauled course, where the rule under which she is required to keep clear changes from RRS 13 to RRS 11, relevant to her entitlement to mark-room?
R may be overlapped @ 3+. However, R 18.2.(f): If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern or by tacking to windward of the other boat and, from the time the overlap begins, the outside boat has been unable to give mark-room, she is not required to give it.
This is where I say: Let the PC determine the boats positions in the given conditions, to see if G could give mark room to R; (minding G has B to her leeward).
I will repeat: This is the time 18.2(f) come to play and the real question will be to determine if Green and Blue can give mark room to Red.
As suggested, there is nothing in this scenario that prevents Blue and Green to give room to Red. It is a close call, but as Rob Overton pointed out, Red will also need a bit of room to get around the Mark.
How is this going to play out in a real-life situation when you add water to it, my guess would be:
“It depends.” Flat water and light to moderate wind (no current), Green and Blue should be able to accommodate Red. In heavier conditions and added current, Red could be at risk of not getting her mark room.
Do you see this differently? How?
Kim
Hooray. We're on the same page.
Yes, I agree that existing conditions will be important.
At position 3 in Catalan's original diagram, we would all very much doubt that G and B were able to give mark-room.
Once we agree that the overlap began @3 in your diagram, as I said in my first response to you
@3, R is more than 1 BL from the mark. G is nearly 2 BL from the mark, and B just over 2 BL from the mark.
That's starting to look like quite enough space, if G acts promptly.