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How much room ?
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
1
Hi friends, i have a question:
POSITION N°3: RED has Mark-Room 18.2b and also right of way boat for rule 11, surpassly red changes course and rule 16 is turned on.
My question is: How much room should red give to blue to keep clear?
From the DEFINITION of ROOM: Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.
From what I see in the diagram, blue gives red enough room to comply with rule 18.2b, but blue hits the mark to avoid contact with red...that is, red violates rule 16.
Red appears to be clear ahead at the zone, and is therefore entitled to mark room (which includes sailing her proper course, tactically, around the leeward mark). Therefore, Blue has no entitlements at the mark, even if an overlap is subsequently established: Blue therefore appears to have failed her obligations under Rule 18, while also breaking Rule 31. (In short, Blue has no business sticking its bow inside the mark rounding--an extremely high-risk gambit in such a scenario.)
The only possible exception to this explanation, as I see it, is if Red has not made a seamanlike rounding in sailing her proper course.
Blue would only be exonerated for hitting a mark under Rule 41 if she had the right of way, and were forced to break a rule (in this case Rule 31), by the illicit actions of Red--which does not appear to be the case.
Am I missing something in your set-up?
Created: 24-Jan-22 22:12
P
Greg Wilkins
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Club Judge
1
With regards to 16, there is no consideration of the mark. So if blue was able to keep clear then 16 was not broken. Even if it was, then 43.1(b) would exonerate Red.
Blue must give Red room to sail to the mark and to round it.
Created: 24-Jan-22 22:15
Calum Polwart
Nationality: United Kingdom
2
At what point does mark-room switch off? Once the mark is rounded? Is it rounded at Step 3?
Cameron Nowhere in the definition of Mark Room does it say you are entitled to sail your proper course. So you don't gain the right to make a tactical rounding.
Created: 24-Jan-22 23:42
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
3
Catalan is it your intention to show Red at #3 at her close hauled course or above her close hauled course?
Also, where is the wind coming from and in what direction is the next mark?
Created: 24-Jan-23 00:01
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
1
Bob re: “Nowhere in the definition of Mark Room does it say you are entitled to sail your proper course.
It’s not in def: MR, it’s in 18.2(c)(2).
Created: 24-Jan-23 00:09
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
1
The wind blows from the TOP. The red mark is a leeward mark, boats must go to a windward mark.
Created: 24-Jan-23 00:16
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
2
Red at #3 is above her close hauled course.
Created: 24-Jan-23 00:18
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
-1
Bob,
Nowhere in the definition of Mark Room does it say you are entitled to sail your proper course.
"Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,
(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and"
I think that covers it. Also, what Angelo says!
Created: 24-Jan-23 00:39
Frank Brinkers
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
Regional Race Officer
Umpire In Training
National Judge
0
Angelo, Red is clear ahead when she reaches the zone. Thus, 18.2(a) applies, not 18.2(b), and subsequently not 18.2(c). So no right for Red to sail her proper course.
Murray, Def. Mark room requires that it is your proper course to sail near to a mark, then you may go directly (in a narrow corridor) to it. There is no right to sail your proper course in this definition.
Created: 24-Jan-23 00:59
Bob Lewis
Nationality: Canada
0
Murray Your English/logic should be better than that. “when her proper course is to sail close to it” is a qualifier for the right to sail “to the mark”. What else can the word “when” mean. That’s why the cases say mark room in this example, is a corridor to sail straight to and right next to the mark. That excludes looping out and sailing a tactical rounding unless of course you’re basing that on right of way rules.
Angelo Cameron’s post said the boat with mark room was clear ahead had mark room and so could sail its proper course. You quoted 18.2c2 … well ok you can quote that other rule but it requires an overlap which does not exist in Cameron’s sentence and also 18.2c2 is not part of “Mark room” it’s just “room” that is inserted into the mark room rule.
Created: 24-Jan-23 01:08
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
2
In position N°1 applies 18.2(b)
18.2 Giving Mark-Room (b) If a boat is clear ahead ( Red ) when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment ( Blue ) shall thereafter give her mark-room.
Created: 24-Jan-23 01:10
Bob Lewis
Nationality: Canada
1
Frank, I think you mean 18.2b does apply so 18.2a does not. I think 18.2c2 does not apply when red first enters the circle as there was no overlap but at position 2, blue has just gained an inside overlap and so at that moment red gains the right to room to sail her proper course 18.2c2. She is instantly sailing with the room to which she is entitled (even though she is outside the mark room corridor) and so now can’t be penalized for breaking 16.1 under the exoneration rules.
Created: 24-Jan-23 01:23
P
Greg Wilkins
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Club Judge
0
Edit: I'm wrong here. See correction from Angelo below!
Red at all times is the ROW boat and she is under no obligation to not sail above her proper course. If the mark was not there she would be entitled to luff blue so the way to head to wind so long as she obeys 16.
With the mark there, the only difference is that she can break 16 and be exonerated if she is in the mark room to which she is entitled. She did a wide rounding so that is a little debatable.... But she didn't break 16 as blue was able to keep clear, so she doesn't need to be exonerated.
Just ignore 18 and pretend the mark doesn't exist. She was entitled to sail as she did. 18 only gives her more rights as she was owed mark room as well.
Created: 24-Jan-23 02:41
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
2
Frank re: “Red is clear ahead when she reaches the zone. Thus, 18.2(a) applies, not 18.2(b), and subsequently not 18.2(c). So no right for Red to sail her proper course. ”
Frank looks like you are missing the 2nd sentence of 18.2(b) …
If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.
18.2(b) applies based on the 2nd sentence, therefore 18.2(c)(2) applies to Blue (the boat required to give mark room) at position 2 when she becomes inside overlapped with Red.
Red is entitled to sail her proper course (from 2 to 3 since they remained overlapped) which from position 2 is to continue to turn to starboard to a close hauled course (based upon the wind from the top of the page and the next mark directly to windward).
Created: 24-Jan-23 02:54
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
1
Catalan I have a couple more questions … since you have stated Red is above her close hauled course at 3.
At the moment Red reaches her close hauled course prior to 3, was there space between Red and the Mark for Blue to pass between them without making contact with both Red and the Mark?
If the answer is “yes” above, at that moment, was there also enough room for Red to alter course in both directions without immediately making contact with Blue?
PS: and was there any damage or injury?
Created: 24-Jan-23 02:58
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
2
Greg re: “With regards to 16, there is no consideration of the mark.”
Doesn’t 16 entitle a boat to room and doesn’t room include her obligations under rule 31?
Created: 24-Jan-23 03:16
P
Greg Wilkins
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Club Judge
2
Angelo: you are correct and I have learnt something. I missed the explicit call-out of rule 31 in the definition of room. So Blues obligation under 31 is too not touch the mark and Reds actions caused her to do so. Thus red did break 16 and we have to see if she is exonerated under 43.1(b) or not.
So is Red's luff above close hauled sailing to the mark on her proper course? At 2, her proper course is to sail to the mark. But at 3, her proper course no longer is to go close to the mark.
We need to see position 2.5 and to hear testimony from the helm as to why they sailed beyond a close rounding? Was that because of Blue? In which case Blue failed to give mark room at 2.5. But if Red just sailed wide and Blue was taking there opportunity to stick her nose in.... Interesting.
Position 3 looks too late to "slam the door" as Red is no longer in the room she is entitled to because there luff is not her proper course. Red should have come up at 2 and sailed directly to the mark. Having failed to to that, the luff breaks 16 and may not be exonerated.
So because of the explicit call out of rule 31 in the definition of room, then Red is in some trouble by for her luff. Blue may also be in trouble if Red had to sail wide because of her and then belatedly tried to slam the door with them luff.
Created: 24-Jan-23 05:53
Arto Kiiski
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
International Judge
0
Red is right of way all the time. Besides of that, she is entitled to mark room. Blue has nothing. When arguing about 18.1/2 a/b/c, please remember that 18.2b contains both overlap sceanrios. Which is the case here.
Created: 24-Jan-23 07:41
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
1
YES !!.....there was space between Red and the Mark for Blue to pass between them without making contact with both Red and the Mark
YES !!..... there was also enough room for Red to alter course in both directions without immediately making contact with Blue
Bob, Angelo: Yes, I was wrong, sorry. 18.2(b) and (c). You shouldn‘t write at late night… ;)
Created: 24-Jan-23 08:13
Frank Brinkers
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
Regional Race Officer
Umpire In Training
National Judge
2
With the clarification from Catalan, it‘s 16.1, no exoneration for Red:
No part of Mark room violated, always responded immediately to Reds actions (did what she could do), no proper course for Red to luff above close-hauled.
Blue exonerated both by 43.1(a) and 43.1(b), since she was forced to touch the mark by violation of 16.1 by Red, and she sailed within her room to keep clear from Red while breaking 31.
Created: 24-Jan-23 08:21
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
So, after position B3, red MUST sail its proper course till the end of the zone ?
So, there was a contact with blue boat and mark. There was no contact between the boats. Is your conclusion really that red boat being right of way boat AND entitled mark-room is guilty? Yes, there is a slight possibilty of breaking 16.1. But let's think about this; red did not want to make a contact to avoid 14 and protests blue boat under 18.2 and 31. What would be the possible outcome? See cases 2 and 75.
Created: 24-Jan-23 12:18
David Battye
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
National Judge
National Umpire
1
My summary of the incident based on the previous posts. Facts:
At position , Red entered the zone clear ahead of Blue.
At position 2, Blue acquired an inside overlap as Red luffed to round the mark..
At position 3, Red luffed above close-hauled and there was contact between Blue and the mark.
There was no damage or injury.
Rules which apply: 11, 18.2(b), 18.2(c)(2), 31, 43.1(b). Conclusions:
Red was entitled to mark-room under rule 18.2(b), and sailed within this mark-room throughout the incident.
At position 3, Blue kept clear of Red and gave mark-room. Blue did not break rules 11, 18.2(b) or 18.2(c)(2).
At position 3, Red's luff caused Blue to mark contact with the mark. Red broke rule 16.1 but is exonerated under rule 43.1(b) since she was sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled.
At position 3, Blue broke rule 31.
Decision: Blue is scored DSQ.
Created: 24-Jan-23 12:39
David Battye
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
National Judge
National Umpire
0
Fact 1 should read At Position 1
Created: 24-Jan-23 12:42
Arto Kiiski
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
International Judge
0
Well, yes, if Blue used "freeway" with no issues, I am also happy to leave 18.2 out.
Created: 24-Jan-23 12:48
P
Greg Wilkins
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Club Judge
0
David,
Thanks for your analysis.
Can you expand a bit on how you determined "Red [...] sailed within this mark-room throughout the incident."
Specifically, how does Red's luff at 3 affect her sailing within her mark room since sometime after 2 and just before 3, her proper course was no longer took her close to the mark. Is she sailing within her mark room because at 1, her proper course was to sail to the mark and that persists? Or is it because she is physically within a corridor to the mark and around the mark, regardless of her heading?
P.S. you left 16.1 out of your list of rules that apply
Created: 24-Jan-23 13:50
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
2
I'd like to offer an alternate decision from David's which is in line with Frank's conclusion. I used David's write-up as a basis and will show [additions] and subtractions in place as well as number the items for ease of discussion. I'm also using David's conclusion style for consistency.
[Ang's]My summary of the incident based on the previous posts.
Facts:
At position 1, Red entered the zone clear ahead of Blue.
At position 2, Blue acquired an inside overlap as Red luffed[altered course to starboard] to round the mark..
[At position 2.75:
Red reached her close-hauled course with the mark abeam to starboard,
there was ~ 1BL between Red and the Mark
Blue had sailed between Red and the Mark leaving approximately 1/4 BL between Blue and Red and 2 feet between Blue and the Mark]
At position 3, Red luffed above close-hauled[, Blue luffed in response] and there was contact between Blue and the mark. [There was no contact between Red and Blue. At that moment the space between Red and the Mark was less than 1 boat-width]
Red was entitled to mark-room under rule 18.2(b), and sailed within this mark-room throughout the incident.
At position 3[2.75] Blue kept clear of Red and gave mark-room. Blue did not break rules 11, 18.2(b) or 18.2(c)(2).
At position 3, Red's luff caused[compelled] Blue to make contact with the mark [while Blue avoided contact with Red].
Red broke rule 16.1, but is [not] exonerated under rule 43.1(b) since she was [not] sailing within the [18.2(c)(2) room or 18.2(b)] mark-room to which she was entitled
[Red's 18.2(c)(2) room was room to sail her proper course and her MR was room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course, which in both cases was room to sail up to her close-hauled course. Blue gave Red room to do both up to position 2.75.]
At position 3, Blue broke rule 31, [but is exonerated under rule 43.1(a) as she was compelled to break rule 31 by Red who was breaking rule 16.1] or [is exonerated under 43.1(b) ... ]
Decision: Blue[Red] is scored DSQ.
PS: Blue can be exonerated under 43.1(a) or (b) .. either is fine.
Created: 24-Jan-23 14:16
David Battye
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
National Judge
National Umpire
0
Greg, Good question. At position 3 Red was sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled because she was rounding the mark as necessary to sail the course without touching the mark. There is no rule which requires her to sail a proper course during the rounding manoeuvre whilst entitled to mark-room. Thanks for the addition of rule 16.1
Created: 24-Jan-23 14:24
Frank Brinkers
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
Regional Race Officer
Umpire In Training
National Judge
4
@Angelo: That‘s precisely my conclusion, thanks!
@Catalan, nobody „must“ sail her proper course.
Red is entitled by 18.2(c) to sail her proper course, which is close-hauled, but not above.
And Red has to respect 16.1 while luffing (which she might legally do on grounds of 11), i.e. giving room to keep clear for Blue while luffing, including to give enough room for Blue to not violate 31 (see def. room). This Red missed to do, and this is not exonerated.
Created: 24-Jan-23 14:32
Frank Brinkers
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
Regional Race Officer
Umpire In Training
National Judge
1
David: Countercheck the three rights, which mark room gives to Red:
1) Leave the mark on correct side. (Check) (2) Sail directly to the mark (Was possible, but not used by Red. Check.) (3) Pass or round the mark to sail the course. (Check.)
Thus, Blue always gave Mark room and fulfilled her obligations.
Mark room does not give a special later luffing right after missing to sail directly to the mark in time. Pass and round to sail the course, not more.
Further, 18.2(c) allows Red to sail her proper course. If she would have done so, there wouldn‘t be any issue. But Red sailed above her proper course.
This can only be covered by RoW (11) and is limited by 16.1 (violated here).
Remember that Blue has no obligation to foresee any actions of Red, but to respond immediately in a seamanlike way, which she did throughout the incident.
Created: 24-Jan-23 14:45
David Battye
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
National Judge
National Umpire
0
Angelo,
Thanks for your alternative solution. Not sure I agree with: Red's MR was room to sail her proper course (18.2(c)(2) and room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course, which in both cases was to sail up to her close-hauled course]
In my opinion. Red’s mark-room is defined the the definition mark-room not by 18.2(c). 18.2(c) places an obligation on Blue to give mark-room up Red’s proper (close-hauled) course. I don’t see that it places an obligation on Red not to sail above proper course.
Created: 24-Jan-23 14:46
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
1
David … re: “Not sure I agree with: Red's MR was room to sail her proper course (18.2(c)(2) and room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course, which in both cases was to sail up to her close-hauled course]”
Thanks … Iaccidentallyflipped those. MR is the “room necessary to sail the course” and the 18.2(c)(2) is "room to sail her proper course".
In this case, IMO, both of those align to be the same thing at pos 2.75. Because it is not necessary for Red to luff above her close-hauled course to sail-the-course, and the luff is above her proper course, IMO that luff is outside the MR and 18.2(c)(2) room she is entitled to. Because Red is not sailing within room or MR she is entitle do, she is not entitled to 43.1(b) exoneration for breaking 16.1.
Created: 24-Jan-23 15:27
Arto Kiiski
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
International Judge
0
My point exactly.And I agree with David. Like I said earlier, there might be a slight possibility of 16.1, but if we look at very first image, it won't clearly describe the situation. Did inside boat rather hit the mark instead of right of way boat? We don't know that.
Created: 24-Jan-23 15:37
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
2
Arto … Catalan added additional facts in response to my questions. They are peppered through the thread.
Created: 24-Jan-23 15:43
Bob Lewis
Nationality: Canada
1
I’d like to ask whether blue has broken rule 18.2c2 at the moment the overlap was established, probably just before position 2. At that point, Blue has blocked Red from sailing her proper course as allowed by 18.2c2 but red does not attempt to force the issue which clearly would result in a collision between boats or the mark. Blue presumably would claim the space was freely given quoting Case 63. So really, I’m asking does red have to move her bow as if to round or is it enough to be blocked and be in a position to take the room if given.
My inclination would be to penalize blue at that point and distinguish case 63 as a case where the boat with mark room was not in a position to take advantage of it, not like here. If red was willing to state they had no intention of sailing close to the mark, maybe that changes things??
Created: 24-Jan-23 19:52
Frank Brinkers
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
Regional Race Officer
Umpire In Training
National Judge
1
Bob, Red could at any time, throughout the incident, continue her course, change her course in both directions without immediate contact, and sail her proper course. But she did not sail her proper course. There is no obligation on Blue not to take the chance when Red did not sail a tight course to/near the mark. I cannot detect any ‚blocking‘?
You‘ll never find out what‘s possible if you do not luff to the mark in time as RoW boat entitled to mark room. The windward boat may use any free space the leeward boat provides without a need to do so, as long as she keeps clear.
Imagine Red would have build more distance to Blue by bearing away: Blue would certainly be entitled to follow and bear away as well, as long as she continues to keep clear.
Created: 24-Jan-23 22:46
Bob Lewis
Nationality: Canada
0
Frank, thanks for the answer. I’m assuming that if red attempts to sail close to the mark after position 2 she will collide with blue due to the significant overlap. Are you saying that red needs to hit the blue boat to win a protest? If not, what is the minimum red must do to win the protest for denying mark room.
Created: 24-Jan-23 23:57
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
0
Bob,
Murray Your English/logic should be better than that. “when her proper course is to sail close to it” is a qualifier for the right to sail “to the mark”. What else can the word “when” mean. That’s why the cases say mark room in this example, is a corridor to sail straight to and right next to the mark. That excludes looping out and sailing a tactical rounding unless of course you’re basing that on right of way rules.
Let's look at a couple of situations. Clipboard01.jpg106 KB Here, Yellow is sailing her proper course at the end of a run, to round the mark and sail upwind to the next mark. When is it her proper course to sail close to the mark? It is not at position 1, nor is it at position 2.
Clipboard02.jpg109 KB Clearly, position 1 is not when it is her proper course to sail close to the mark, as she would end up to leeward of the position she would have been if sailing a "tactical" rounding. It is Yellow's proper course to sail close to the mark when she is between positions 3 and 4. The definition of Mark Room entitles her to room to sail to the mark at that time.
In Catalan's revised diagram, Red is beyond the point where it would be her proper course to sail close to the mark.
Created: 24-Jan-24 00:19
Paul Murray
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
0
I feel like I’m missing something (reading this all on a phone is a little hard on the small screen). How were facts found that the red sails above close hauled?
Created: 24-Jan-24 00:23
Bob Lewis
Nationality: Canada
0
Paul Murray, I believe Angelo asked the original poster that question and the answer was yes, above close hauled. thread is getting a bit long :-)
Created: 24-Jan-24 00:26
Bob Lewis
Nationality: Canada
0
Murray, looking at your first diagram it does not look to me like yellow is sailing her proper course. There are no other boats in the diagram so how can it be " A course a boat would choose in order to sail the course and finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. " Clearly a course that went close to the mark would be quicker than the deep dive to leeward that you have drawn. I would say at all positions prior to reaching the mark, her proper course would take you close to the mark. I think our disagreement here revolves around this question: Does "when her proper course is to sail close to it" mean when her proper course is to sail directly to and close to the mark? I think the answer is no because directly is not part of the definition. If we take the tactical rounding where it is a proper course, we find that it does take you close to the mark but on the far side and so it satisfies the criteria. Also the apex turn that is close to the mark directly to leeward of it also satisfies the criteria. It turns out that the mark room you are entitled to under 18.2b is usually not a proper course as going directly to the mark will take you farther to leeward than the quickest route and as you point out may even put you in the lee of other boats. So for the second diagram, again at 1 and 2 I would say yellow's proper course is to sail close to the mark, but it only gives her the right to sail directly to the mark unless 18.2c2 is invoked by an inside overlapping boat.
Created: 24-Jan-24 00:43
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
0
Bob, The two diagrams were intended to illustrate the difference between a tactical rounding, and a rounding in which the boat sails close to the mark before rounding. In the second diagram, the blue boat shows the track Yellow would have taken had she sailed directly from position1 to a position close to the mark, and the Yellow boat is the comparative position from the tactical rounding. The point of this was to demonstrate that the course sailed in a tactical rounding can lead to quicker finish, and therefore, that course can fit within the definition of Proper Course. It is Yellow's proper course to sail close to the mark after sailing wide of the mark. So the "when" in the Mark Room definition is some time after she has sailed wide of the mark, not before.
Created: 24-Jan-24 01:40
P
Greg Wilkins
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Club Judge
0
Murray, your first diagram does not look like a tactical rounding. It looks like a late/deep rounding followed by a needless luff.
I can't see how a luff can ever be in a proper course as it is not the greatest way if there are no other boats. It might be tactical, but only if there is another boat that you want to get above. But that is not a proper course.
Blue's course in your second diagram looks better, but if they shifted a bit to the east then it could be both proper and tactical.
Created: 24-Jan-24 05:02
Chris Hogan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
Club Judge
Regional Umpire
1
Coming back to Catalan’s question “How much room should red give to blue to keep clear?”
As I understand Catalan’s posts, red changes course between positions 2 and 3 to above close hauled.
He doesn’t say whether there are more than one course change. The answer may vary depending on the circumstances of each change.
Each time red changes course rule 16 requires her to give blue room to keep clear. If she does not then she is exonerated under rule 43.1(b) only if during the course change she was “sailing within the … mark-room to which she is entitled”.
Because the boats are overlapped mark room includes room for red to sail her proper course (rule 18.2(c)(2)).
It seems that at position 2 red’s proper course is close hauled on starboard tack to the mark, passing as close to the mark as possible.
So for each change of course the answer depends upon whether in making the change red sails above close hauled.
If not she need give only enough room to comply with rule 14 (ie to avoid contact). If there is contact red is exonerated unless the contact causes damage or injury (rule 43.1(c)).
But if in making any one change of course red sails above close hauled, she won’t qualify for exoneration re that course change. So under rule 16.1 she must “give [blue] room (ie “the space [blue] needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way” to keep clear (ie so that red “can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action” and “change course in both directions without immediately making contact”.
If when red changes course blue is adjacent to the mark, red must take that into account in determining the space required.
Otherwise the space required will vary with conditions, speed, boat type, and particularly handling characteristics due to rudder position etc.
Created: 24-Jan-24 05:49
Bob Lewis
Nationality: Canada
0
Murray, I agree a tactical rounding is close to the mark but I think the “when” in the definition has nothing to do with time. “When” is a bit of an unusual word to use in this type of sentence. Most often it means a point in time but here it uses a second definition which is equivalent to “if”. As in “If your proper course takes you close to the mark then your mark room includes room to sail to the mark.” Merriam Webster definition 2 for when is “in the event that : IF … [e.g.] a contestant is disqualified when he disobeys the rule.” Dave Perry uses the word “if” to explain this definition in his book on the rules. Since we are trying to decide if the boat gets room to sail to the mark from the edge of the circle, we need to make this evaluation when mark room begins.
Created: 24-Jan-24 06:21
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
0
Bob,
I agree a tactical rounding is close to the mark but I think the “when” in the definition has nothing to do with time. “When” is a bit of an unusual word to use in this type of sentence. Most often it means a point in time but here it uses a second definition which is equivalent to “if”. As in “If your proper course takes you close to the mark then your mark room includes room to sail to the mark.”
A, tactical rounding is a proper course. You agree that a tactical rounding takes you close to the mark. “If your proper course takes you close to the mark then your mark room includes room to sail to the mark.”
Created: 24-Jan-24 13:36
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
Excuse me @Angelo Guarino
What does IMO mean ?
In this case, IMO, both of those..........
Created: 24-Jan-24 14:28
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
2
Catalan .. re: IMO .. sorry! IMO = “In my opinion”. IMHO = “In my humble opinion”
Also we often use …
FWIW = “For what it’s worth” … meaning what is said next may or may-not add anything of value to the discussion .. but might be worth something so here it is.
I.E or i.e = “in other words” E.G or e.g = “for example” (though many .. including me … mix i.e and e.g up all the time and use them interchangeably).
PS: my favorite (which has fallen out of use) was GD&R = Grin, Duck and Run … used when you know you just said something really funny but it would likely result in getting you hit on the head for it. So, say it, laugh and immediately duck to miss the hit on the head and run away as fast as you can. LOL
.. you can imagine I got A LOT of use out of gd&r over the years :-)
Created: 24-Jan-24 14:41
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
I keep with this case. In position 3 Red breaks rule 16.1 BUT is exonerated with 43.1b
What do you think ? CHEERS
Created: 24-Jan-29 10:09
David Battye
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
National Judge
National Umpire
2
Cata, it all depends on whether Red was clearly above close-hauled in position 3 in your original diagram. If she was not above close-hauled then she was sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled and is exonerated under 43.1(b) as you suggest. If she was clearly above close-hauled then she was sailing outside the mark-room to which she was entitled and is not exonerated. If there is reasonable doubt about Red's course at position 3, then umpires would follow the principle of the last point of certainty and find that was that she was not above close-hauled. Red gets the benefit of the doubt. It all depends on the facts found.
Created: 24-Jan-29 10:35
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
1
Hugh re: “Hope someone can tell me how to avoid in future.”
It’s best to only try to paste the images and not try to accomplish complicated formatting. If you want to type your thoughts “offline” and then paste the text … do that first and paste as unformatted text and then format using the limited text-formatting tools available on the tool bar.
Next, paste your images in the text (at cursor locations). The text won’t wrap around the images, so the formatting is basic … but we’ve all gotten used to those limitations here.
If you do that, what you post will be easily legible on all devices. If you want to go ahead and do that, you can go back and delete the previous comments after. - Ang
Created: 24-Jan-30 12:08
Hugh Wylam
Nationality: United Kingdom
1
I’ve been thinking about Cata’s post and the considerable number of comments that it generated. I imagine Cata thought he was asking a simple question!
It seems to me that 3 different scenarios have been covered in the replies:
i) Where R left enough space between her and the leeward mark for B to sneak in and round inside without breaking any rules.
ii) Where R sailed a proper course and caused B to hit the mark.
iii) Where R sailed above her proper course and caused B to hit the mark.
I think an umpire would be trying to determine which of these happened. Taking David’s suggestion; assume these are facts found.
In all scenarios R arrives at the 2lz (for ease of keeping diags small) clear ahead of B
B takes a risk by establishing an overlap inside R but gives mark-room to R throughout. R (RoW at all times) makes a wide rounding of the mark and luffs to her proper course to the windward mark.
NO PENALTY Ref: WS Case 63
ii) image.png83.7 KB R’s alteration of course, between 2 and 3 which takes her closer to the mark than in i), breaks Rule 16.1 as it causes B to break Rule31. However R is exonerated under Rule 43.1(b) as she is sailing within the room to which she is entitled under Rule 18.
PENALISEB for breaking Rule 31
iii) image.png88.5 KB R starts a similarly wide rounding as in i) but then between 3 and 4 luffs so hard that by 4 she is clearly above her proper course - (perhaps to try to ‘shut the door’).
Although R and B have not passed the mark at 4, Rule 18 no longer applies between them as B gave R room to sail to the mark and to round it. See last sentence of Rule 18.1
Similar reasoning applies in TR Calls H2 and H5.
PENALISE R for breaking Rule 16.1 in that she caused B to break Rule31. B is exonerated for breaking Rule31 under Rule 43.1(a)
Created: 24-Jan-30 12:58
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Therefore, Blue has no entitlements at the mark, even if an overlap is subsequently established: Blue therefore appears to have failed her obligations under Rule 18, while also breaking Rule 31. (In short, Blue has no business sticking its bow inside the mark rounding--an extremely high-risk gambit in such a scenario.)
The only possible exception to this explanation, as I see it, is if Red has not made a seamanlike rounding in sailing her proper course.
Blue would only be exonerated for hitting a mark under Rule 41 if she had the right of way, and were forced to break a rule (in this case Rule 31), by the illicit actions of Red--which does not appear to be the case.
Am I missing something in your set-up?
Blue must give Red room to sail to the mark and to round it.
RRS 18.2(c) (Para 2)
Nowhere in the definition of Mark Room does it say you are entitled to sail your proper course. So you don't gain the right to make a tactical rounding.
Also, where is the wind coming from and in what direction is the next mark?
It’s not in def: MR, it’s in 18.2(c)(2).
The red mark is a leeward mark, boats must go to a windward mark.
"Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,
I think that covers it. Also, what Angelo says!
Red is clear ahead when she reaches the zone. Thus, 18.2(a) applies, not 18.2(b), and subsequently not 18.2(c). So no right for Red to sail her proper course.
Murray,
Def. Mark room requires that it is your proper course to sail near to a mark, then you may go directly (in a narrow corridor) to it. There is no right to sail your proper course in this definition.
Your English/logic should be better than that. “when her proper course is to sail close to it” is a qualifier for the right to sail “to the mark”. What else can the word “when” mean. That’s why the cases say mark room in this example, is a corridor to sail straight to and right next to the mark. That excludes looping out and sailing a tactical rounding unless of course you’re basing that on right of way rules.
Angelo
Cameron’s post said the boat with mark room was clear ahead had mark room and so could sail its proper course. You quoted 18.2c2 … well ok you can quote that other rule but it requires an overlap which does not exist in Cameron’s sentence and also 18.2c2 is not part of “Mark room” it’s just “room” that is inserted into the mark room rule.
18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(b)
If a boat is clear ahead ( Red ) when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment ( Blue ) shall thereafter give her mark-room.
Red at all times is the ROW boat and she is under no obligation to not sail above her proper course. If the mark was not there she would be entitled to luff blue so the way to head to wind so long as she obeys 16.
With the mark there, the only difference is that she can break 16 and be exonerated if she is in the mark room to which she is entitled. She did a wide rounding so that is a little debatable.... But she didn't break 16 as blue was able to keep clear, so she doesn't need to be exonerated.
Just ignore 18 and pretend the mark doesn't exist. She was entitled to sail as she did. 18 only gives her more rights as she was owed mark room as well.
Frank looks like you are missing the 2nd sentence of 18.2(b) …
18.2(b) applies based on the 2nd sentence, therefore 18.2(c)(2) applies to Blue (the boat required to give mark room) at position 2 when she becomes inside overlapped with Red.
Red is entitled to sail her proper course (from 2 to 3 since they remained overlapped) which from position 2 is to continue to turn to starboard to a close hauled course (based upon the wind from the top of the page and the next mark directly to windward).
At the moment Red reaches her close hauled course prior to 3, was there space between Red and the Mark for Blue to pass between them without making contact with both Red and the Mark?
If the answer is “yes” above, at that moment, was there also enough room for Red to alter course in both directions without immediately making contact with Blue?
PS: and was there any damage or injury?
Doesn’t 16 entitle a boat to room and doesn’t room include her obligations under rule 31?
So is Red's luff above close hauled sailing to the mark on her proper course? At 2, her proper course is to sail to the mark. But at 3, her proper course no longer is to go close to the mark.
We need to see position 2.5 and to hear testimony from the helm as to why they sailed beyond a close rounding? Was that because of Blue? In which case Blue failed to give mark room at 2.5. But if Red just sailed wide and Blue was taking there opportunity to stick her nose in.... Interesting.
Position 3 looks too late to "slam the door" as Red is no longer in the room she is entitled to because there luff is not her proper course. Red should have come up at 2 and sailed directly to the mark. Having failed to to that, the luff breaks 16 and may not be exonerated.
So because of the explicit call out of rule 31 in the definition of room, then Red is in some trouble by for her luff. Blue may also be in trouble if Red had to sail wide because of her and then belatedly tried to slam the door with them luff.
YES !!..... there was also enough room for Red to alter course in both directions without immediately making contact with Blue
No damage or injury ever.
No part of Mark room violated, always responded immediately to Reds actions (did what she could do), no proper course for Red to luff above close-hauled.
Blue exonerated both by 43.1(a) and 43.1(b), since she was forced to touch the mark by violation of 16.1 by Red, and she sailed within her room to keep clear from Red while breaking 31.
Facts:
Conclusions:
Thanks for your analysis.
Can you expand a bit on how you determined "Red [...] sailed within this mark-room throughout the incident."
Specifically, how does Red's luff at 3 affect her sailing within her mark room since sometime after 2 and just before 3, her proper course was no longer took her close to the mark. Is she sailing within her mark room because at 1, her proper course was to sail to the mark and that persists? Or is it because she is physically within a corridor to the mark and around the mark, regardless of her heading?
P.S. you left 16.1 out of your list of rules that apply
subtractionsin place as well as number the items for ease of discussion. I'm also using David's conclusion style for consistency.[Ang's]
Mysummary of the incident based on the previous posts.Facts:
luffed[altered course to starboard] to round the mark..Rules which apply: 11, [16.1], 18.2(b), 18.2(c)(2), 31, 43.1(b) [or 43.1(a)]
Conclusions:
, and sailed within this mark-room throughout the incident.3[2.75] Blue kept clear of Red and gave mark-room. Blue did not break rules 11, 18.2(b) or 18.2(c)(2).caused[compelled] Blue to make contact with the mark [while Blue avoided contact with Red].Decision:
Blue[Red] is scored DSQ.PS: Blue can be exonerated under 43.1(a) or (b) .. either is fine.
Good question.
At position 3 Red was sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled because she was rounding the mark as necessary to sail the course without touching the mark. There is no rule which requires her to sail a proper course during the rounding manoeuvre whilst entitled to mark-room.
Thanks for the addition of rule 16.1
@Catalan, nobody „must“ sail her proper course.
Red is entitled by 18.2(c) to sail her proper course, which is close-hauled, but not above.
And Red has to respect 16.1 while luffing (which she might legally do on grounds of 11), i.e. giving room to keep clear for Blue while luffing, including to give enough room for Blue to not violate 31 (see def. room). This Red missed to do, and this is not exonerated.
1) Leave the mark on correct side. (Check)
(2) Sail directly to the mark (Was possible, but not used by Red. Check.)
(3) Pass or round the mark to sail the course. (Check.)
Thus, Blue always gave Mark room and fulfilled her obligations.
Mark room does not give a special later luffing right after missing to sail directly to the mark in time. Pass and round to sail the course, not more.
Further, 18.2(c) allows Red to sail her proper course. If she would have done so, there wouldn‘t be any issue. But Red sailed above her proper course.
This can only be covered by RoW (11) and is limited by 16.1 (violated here).
Remember that Blue has no obligation to foresee any actions of Red, but to respond immediately in a seamanlike way, which she did throughout the incident.
Thanks for your alternative solution.
Not sure I agree with:
Red's MR was room to sail her proper course (18.2(c)(2) and room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course, which in both cases was to sail up to her close-hauled course]
In my opinion. Red’s mark-room is defined the the definition mark-room not by 18.2(c).
18.2(c) places an obligation on Blue to give mark-room up Red’s proper (close-hauled) course. I don’t see that it places an obligation on Red not to sail above proper course.
Thanks … I accidentally flipped those. MR is the “room necessary to sail the course” and the 18.2(c)(2) is "room to sail her proper course".
In this case, IMO, both of those align to be the same thing at pos 2.75. Because it is not necessary for Red to luff above her close-hauled course to sail-the-course, and the luff is above her proper course, IMO that luff is outside the MR and 18.2(c)(2) room she is entitled to. Because Red is not sailing within room or MR she is entitle do, she is not entitled to 43.1(b) exoneration for breaking 16.1.
You‘ll never find out what‘s possible if you do not luff to the mark in time as RoW boat entitled to mark room. The windward boat may use any free space the leeward boat provides without a need to do so, as long as she keeps clear.
Imagine Red would have build more distance to Blue by bearing away: Blue would certainly be entitled to follow and bear away as well, as long as she continues to keep clear.
Let's look at a couple of situations.
Here, Yellow is sailing her proper course at the end of a run, to round the mark and sail upwind to the next mark. When is it her proper course to sail close to the mark? It is not at position 1, nor is it at position 2.
Clearly, position 1 is not when it is her proper course to sail close to the mark, as she would end up to leeward of the position she would have been if sailing a "tactical" rounding. It is Yellow's proper course to sail close to the mark when she is between positions 3 and 4. The definition of Mark Room entitles her to room to sail to the mark at that time.
In Catalan's revised diagram, Red is beyond the point where it would be her proper course to sail close to the mark.
Clearly a course that went close to the mark would be quicker than the deep dive to leeward that you have drawn. I would say at all positions prior to reaching the mark, her proper course would take you close to the mark. I think our disagreement here revolves around this question: Does "when her proper course is to sail close to it" mean when her proper course is to sail directly to and close to the mark? I think the answer is no because directly is not part of the definition. If we take the tactical rounding where it is a proper course, we find that it does take you close to the mark but on the far side and so it satisfies the criteria. Also the apex turn that is close to the mark directly to leeward of it also satisfies the criteria. It turns out that the mark room you are entitled to under 18.2b is usually not a proper course as going directly to the mark will take you farther to leeward than the quickest route and as you point out may even put you in the lee of other boats. So for the second diagram, again at 1 and 2 I would say yellow's proper course is to sail close to the mark, but it only gives her the right to sail directly to the mark unless 18.2c2 is invoked by an inside overlapping boat.
The two diagrams were intended to illustrate the difference between a tactical rounding, and a rounding in which the boat sails close to the mark before rounding. In the second diagram, the blue boat shows the track Yellow would have taken had she sailed directly from position1 to a position close to the mark, and the Yellow boat is the comparative position from the tactical rounding. The point of this was to demonstrate that the course sailed in a tactical rounding can lead to quicker finish, and therefore, that course can fit within the definition of Proper Course. It is Yellow's proper course to sail close to the mark after sailing wide of the mark. So the "when" in the Mark Room definition is some time after she has sailed wide of the mark, not before.
I can't see how a luff can ever be in a proper course as it is not the greatest way if there are no other boats. It might be tactical, but only if there is another boat that you want to get above. But that is not a proper course.
Blue's course in your second diagram looks better, but if they shifted a bit to the east then it could be both proper and tactical.
Coming back to Catalan’s question “How much room should red give to blue to keep clear?”
A, tactical rounding is a proper course. You agree that a tactical rounding takes you close to the mark. “If your proper course takes you close to the mark then your mark room includes room to sail to the mark.”
What does IMO mean ?
In this case, IMO, both of those..........
Also we often use …
FWIW = “For what it’s worth” … meaning what is said next may or may-not add anything of value to the discussion .. but might be worth something so here it is.
I.E or i.e = “in other words”
E.G or e.g = “for example” (though many .. including me … mix i.e and e.g up all the time and use them interchangeably).
PS: my favorite (which has fallen out of use) was GD&R = Grin, Duck and Run … used when you know you just said something really funny but it would likely result in getting you hit on the head for it. So, say it, laugh and immediately duck to miss the hit on the head and run away as fast as you can. LOL
.. you can imagine I got A LOT of use out of gd&r over the years :-)
In position 3
Red breaks rule 16.1 BUT is exonerated with 43.1b
What do you think ?
CHEERS
It’s best to only try to paste the images and not try to accomplish complicated formatting. If you want to type your thoughts “offline” and then paste the text … do that first and paste as unformatted text and then format using the limited text-formatting tools available on the tool bar.
Next, paste your images in the text (at cursor locations). The text won’t wrap around the images, so the formatting is basic … but we’ve all gotten used to those limitations here.
If you do that, what you post will be easily legible on all devices. If you want to go ahead and do that, you can go back and delete the previous comments after. - Ang
I imagine Cata thought he was asking a simple question!
i) Where R left enough space between her and the leeward mark for B to sneak in and round inside without breaking any rules.
ii) Where R sailed a proper course and caused B to hit the mark.
iii) Where R sailed above her proper course and caused B to hit the mark.
I think an umpire would be trying to determine which of these happened.
Taking David’s suggestion; assume these are facts found.
In all scenarios R arrives at the 2lz (for ease of keeping diags small) clear ahead of B
i)
R (RoW at all times) makes a wide rounding of the mark and luffs to her proper course to the windward mark.
NO PENALTY
Ref: WS Case 63
ii)
R’s alteration of course, between 2 and 3 which takes her closer to the mark than in i), breaks Rule 16.1 as it causes B to break Rule 31.
However R is exonerated under Rule 43.1(b) as she is sailing within the room to which she is entitled under Rule 18.
PENALISE B for breaking Rule 31
iii)
R starts a similarly wide rounding as in i) but then between 3 and 4 luffs so hard that by 4 she is clearly above her proper course - (perhaps to try to ‘shut the door’).
Although R and B have not passed the mark at 4, Rule 18 no longer applies between them as B gave R room to sail to the mark and to round it.
See last sentence of Rule 18.1
Similar reasoning applies in TR Calls H2 and H5.
PENALISE R for breaking Rule 16.1 in that she caused B to break Rule 31.
B is exonerated for breaking Rule 31 under Rule 43.1(a)