Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Interference By A Boat Not Yet Racing

Eric Robbins
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Umpire
  • National Race Officer
In a multi-class weeknight race, the centerboards (Fireball, Laser, etc.) are approaching the long starting line to start, all near the signal boat end.  A 33-foot boat scheduled for a subsequent start is meandering around the middle of the line.  After some harsh words from the centerboards, the 33-footer turns away, but she is still close enough to the line in the final seconds before the gun that she blocks the view of the pin for starters (who are worried about being OCS) between the 33-footer and the RC.

The SI does not have a prohibition of boats not in sequence from being in the starting area.  That leaves RRS 23.1.  There is no issue of "keep clear", as the centerboards do not have to take avoiding action. 

Question: Is the big boat "interfering" with boats that are racing?

Let's go to the dictionary.  Free Dictionary says "to be or create a hindrance or obstacle", while Merriam-Webster says "to interpose in a way that hinders or impedes : come into collision or be in opposition".  

My initial take is that the big boat meets the first definition, but not the second.

Comments?
Created: 21-Jun-21 14:20

Comments

Tim OConnell
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
  • Umpire In Training
  • Club Judge
0
This can be incredibly frustrating and an issue I have only ever seen the race committee do anything about once in decades of racing in numerous places.
I can see the administrative difficulty of advising a boat that has no radio comms, that they are in another fleet's start, and to leave or be DSQ'd, but in keelboat classes that often have a VHF, there's no excuse for not broadcasting a reminder before each start, and penalizing the offenders.
Perhaps we need a new rule 30.5 that requires the RC to display sail numbers of offenders and once displayed, that offender is given the equivalent of a DNC; I can think of many acronyms for this behaviour but let's keep it clean and  call it DNKO "did not keep out". !!
Created: 21-Jun-21 14:52
Thomas Koenig
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
0
First, I'd regulate this issue in the Sailing Instructions as a DP rule. Boats not starting have to stay clear of the starting line. Maybe mentioning this in the course diagram helps. Second, I'd send a rib.
Created: 21-Jun-21 15:03
P
John Mooney
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
1
Eric, I think the big boat is neither creating "a hindrance or obstacle" for the centerboarders, nor hindering / impeding them, as they have no need to take avoiding action. She's interfering with the RC, but there's no RRS rule against that. Unfortunately, absent an SI that prevents boats from being in the starting area when not racing, I don't see any rule you can hang your hat on to penalize them.

- John
Created: 21-Jun-21 15:27
Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
2
 RRS 23.1 If reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing 

Protest her, DSQ in the nearest race, she'll learn for the next time
Created: 21-Jun-21 16:47
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
For the sake of discussion, I’ll take the “breaks 23.1” position and argue that ….

  1. A boat starting (especially a racing dingy) relies upon being able to see the marks which define both ends of the starting line. 
  2. To block the view of the pin-mark of a boat starting is to “interfere” with a key component of starting properly, which is required when sailing the race. 
  3. Other boats in the starting-fleet are not so limited from blocking the view of the marks because it is between their prep and starting signal and therefore they are racing. Neither 23.1 or 23.2 apply to them in this situation. 
  4. On the common understanding of the word “interfere” 
    1. If I was trying to tune in a radio station and I was getting static or weak or no signal because of a tall building between me and transmitter, I might say that I’m getting interference from the building, power lines, etc. 
    2. in American Football, if a wide receiver goes up to catch a pass, and the defender puts up his hands to cover the eyes of the receiver (without touching him) and thus blocks the receiver’s visual contact with the ball, that wound be penalized as “pass interference”. 

PS:  I think the RC might have considered postponing the start and starting the sequence over.  
Created: 21-Jun-21 17:05
Nick Hutton
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
This is all something of a non-argument. Any Club running mixed fleets and/or multiple starts will have included the wording found at 12.4 in the WS Sailing Instructions Guide, or something like it: 12.4  Boats whose warning signal has not been made shall avoid the starting area during the starting sequence for other races. It can be a DP or if the RC so desires.

A Club running these events without using this wording has no basis to penalise a boat that is 'in the way' but has not broken any rules.
Created: 21-Jun-21 23:54
P
John Mooney
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Angelo, I wholeheartedly agree that a postponement, general recall, or abandonment and restart of this race might have been a good move, but with due respect, I must take issue with a couple of your assertions about the common understanding of "interfere";
     a) If you're trying to tune in a radio station and failing for the reasons you state, you're not getting interference from the building, the radio station is. You're just in a place with no radio signal.
     b) I think you're just mistaken about whether an American football defender would be penalized for pass interference as a result of blocking the view of a receiver without touching him. I've certainly never seen such a penalty, and I've seen many a defender who blocked the view of a pass receiver. I'm by no means a football expert, but I'm unaware of any rule that protects a receiver's view of the ball.

I agree with Nick Hutton that it was a mistake to omit language in the SI that keeps boats not racing away from the starting area, but since it appears they did in this case, I think his last sentence can be shortened: "A Club...has no basis to penalize a boat that...has not broken any rules."
Created: 21-Jun-22 00:28
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
John … you are correct about the NFL … my mistake there.  It’s a High School Football rule.  It’s a type of pass interference called “face guarding”. 

Like I said. I’m taking my best stab at making the case “for the sake of discussion”. 

What about my points #1-#3?

Before one can determine if Boat A  interferes with Boat B .. shouldn’t one consider what Boat B is doing or attempting to do?

Are they rounding a mark?, attempting to tack? sail to windward? Start?
Created: 21-Jun-22 02:48
Eric Robbins
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Umpire
  • National Race Officer
0
As I expected, a wide variety of opinions!  I have already proposed adding the appropriate language to the SI.

The question remains:  Is a boat not racing but blocking the view of the starting mark "interfering" with boats attempting to start?

I like Tim's new "letter" score.  Since we now have NSC (Not Sailed Course) we might add NKO (Not Keep Out).

If I had been the race officer I hope I would have postponed.
Created: 21-Jun-22 13:20
Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
 .....If I had been the race officer I hope I would have postponed. 

Correct.

a n d .... i definively add....

....   If I had been the race officer  I would have protested her under 23.1 

Looks you are quite timid at time of protesting and DSQing. Boats that do not behave are annoying other boats, so if you let them, you are not making a favour to the fleet.
Created: 21-Jun-23 18:20
Eric Robbins
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Umpire
  • National Race Officer
0
Aldo - Not sure why you are calling me "quite timid".  I was not involved in the incident, nor on the RC.  Other well-certified commenters on this thread are not nearly as certain as you that a rule was broken.  "Annoying" is not a rule breach.  My reason for the original post was to explore the definition of "interfere" as used in RRS 23.1.
Created: 21-Jun-23 18:39
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Eric re: " "Annoying" is not a rule breach"

One can dream can't they? :-)
Created: 21-Jun-23 19:03
Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
Eric, I was not referring to anyone. From all the replies, I felt a sort of hesitation, like the fear to make a tort to a boat,  if protested.
And  about the "annoying",  also to clarify my point (Angelo) :  interfering IS breaking a rule. Boat breaking rules are annoying. 
OK, the protest should first come from the boats, rather than the RC, but sometime RC or PC have to take the initiative. 
Well, in the case of a boat that makes me repeat a starting sequence, I definively will.

Created: 21-Jun-23 20:36
Eric Robbins
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Umpire
  • National Race Officer
0
Thanks, Aldo.  No offense taken.
This incident did occur last Thursday.  There was more to it than the hypothetical I posted above, as a centerboard did need to take avoiding action.  Protest filed, big boat took a Post-Race Penalty, incident resolved, and hopefully lesson learned.  Now waiting for the blessing of our Chief Judge for the proposed amendment to the SI, which includes that the RC "may" impose a 30% penalty on a boat they observe to be "interfering".
Created: 21-Jun-23 23:22
Nick Hutton
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
There are many different workaround solutions for this problem, but as this is a forum called the Racing Rules of Sailing we should really limit ourselves to rules-based solutions. I would not consider a 'naming and shaming' regime as applying the RRS. Simply write it in your SIs that boats whose warning signal has not been made shall keep clear of boats that are racing or similar (Appendix L provides some nice words), and protest boats that fail to keep clear. Applying a rules-based solution lessens the likelihood of accusations of bias and should not unnecessarily embarrass anyone. It is even possible that the competitors will read the SIs and actually keep clear! Ok, call me a dreamer.
Created: 21-Jun-27 02:37
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