Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

Rule 18 at a Downwind Finish

Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
Green (G) and Yellow (Y) are spinnaker catamarans sailing downwind towards the finish line on starboard tack. They both will need to gybe to finish.
(Position 1) - Green is clear ahead until Yellow establishes an overlap to leeward before either of them reaches the zone (Position 2). Yellow is sailing her proper course as required by RRS 17
At position 3, Y enters the zone directly upwind of the finishing mark (in this case, the signal boat).

Conditions are 12 kts, small chop. Both boat's speed is approximately 15 kts; about 1 boat length every 0.75 seconds.

Questions:
1) Which boat is the inside boat for the purposes of RRS 18.2(b)?
2) If G is owed mark-room by Y, then must Y gybe immediately?
3) If Y does gybe immediately (Position 4), G subsequently gybes, the overlap is broken and because G has overshot the layline, heads up to round the finish mark and there is contact, does she break RRS 12 or does Y break RRS 18.2(c)(1)?

Finally, does RRS 18.4 apply at a downwind finish which is functionally identical to a gate?
Created: 18-May-08 13:04

Comments

Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Race Officer
1
I see it just fine, but let me try to fix that for you.
Better?
Created: 18-May-08 14:36
Danielle Lawson
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
0
Perhaps it is an artifact of the program that was used for the diagram, but it seems like the RC boat is about 1.5 boat-lengths in length. Shouldn't the boats enter the zone when the first of them is within three hull lengths of the closest part of the RC boat? That would give them a bit more time to fulfill their obligations.
Created: 18-May-08 14:50
Clark Chapin
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Club Race Officer
0
Rule 18 certainly applies - The boats are approaching a mark that they are required to pass on the same side.
The boats are overlapped when Yellow reaches the zone, so 18.2(b) applies and Green is entitled to mark-room.
Now it gets interesting. It appears from your description that even if Yellow gibes immediately, Green does not receive room.
Even if the overlap is broken during the gibes, I believe that 18.2(c)(2) continues to be an obligation to Yellow, as long as Green is "manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way".
Finally, I don't think 18.4 applies here. The rationale for that rule at a single rounding mark is pretty clear and doesn't seem to have anything to do with this. Although mark is defined, a "gate mark" is not but a finish line seems to fit any definition that sailors might agree upon.
Created: 18-May-08 15:07
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Russian Federation
0
1) Green.
2) Yes, as Green's proper course is to sail close to the mark (vessel RC) - see the definition 'mark-room'.
3) If there is contact Y does break RRS 18.2(c). G shall be exonerated for breaking R12 by R21(a).

4) R18.4 refers to a boat which is "inside overlapped right-of-way boat". In the pic there is no such boat.

PS. Danielle Lawson are right - the zone in the pic is not coorrect.
Created: 18-May-08 15:18
Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Race Officer
0
The zone border is an artifact of the Boat Scenario program - it will not draw a zone around a committee boat - only around a mark. The zone around a boat is not circular, but boat-shaped.


The blue shaded area in this diagram represents the zone around the RC boat.

When is Yellow obligated to gybe? At the zone? A gybe is not instantaneous and the turning radius is large.
Created: 18-May-08 15:36
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Russian Federation
0

When is Yellow obligated to gybe? At the zone?

Maybe old Call Book Match Racing will help us - see Answer 2.

Created: 18-May-08 17:23
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
0
1. Matt's comment that a gybe is not instantaneous and the gybe radius is wide suggests that, from the time of zone entry and gybing obligation, Yellow was unable to give the mark room Green requires.
18.2(f) and 19.2(b) cover situations where the outside boat is not required to give the room if she cannot.
Neither covers this scenario.
2. Your question about Rule 12 suggests that Green collided with Yellow from clear astern.
That means that both were sailing approximately the same track to round the mark.
18 requires Yellow to give Green room to approach the mark, and apparently does so - just not at the speed Green preferred.
Green violates 12. Yellow complies with 18.
Created: 18-May-08 19:26
Bill Handley
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • National Judge
1
1. Green is the inside boat and entitled to mark room
2, Yellow must undertake all and any seamanlike actions to give Green mark room and if that is gybing immediately then that is what she has to do.
3 Even if the overlap is broken G is still entitled mark room see 18.2(c)(1). If there is contact from clear astern G breaks rule 12 but exonerated under 21(a) because she is taking mark room to which she is entitled. Under (a) of definition of Mark Room she is entitled to room to sail close to the mark and under the definition of room that is the space a boat needs in the existing conditions. Y is denying that space to G and is therefore breaking 18.2(b)
4 Rule 18.4 could apply at a finish mark if the conditions of that rule were met. In this case no boat is inside, overlapped and right of way at the same time so the rule does not apply.
Created: 18-May-08 20:42
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
0
A proper protest hearing would determine where and how contact was made - and back-track from there.
We do not have that information.
The second drawing shows Green having a clear shot at clearing the mark and Yellow.
If Green contacted Yellow from astern, she cannot have transitioned from mark room to leeward boat luffing rights.
Created: 18-May-08 23:08
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
Hi everybody !!
In position nº1 applies RRS-12
In position nº2 applies RRS-11 & RRS-17
In position nº3
Applies RRS-18.2b
For RRV-17, Yellow must sail its proper course that is gybe
D.S.Q. YELLOW for RRS-17 & 18.2b
Cheers !!!
Cata
Created: 18-May-09 01:50
Phil Scherer
Nationality: New Zealand
0
If yellow just turned downwind and didn't gybe, then they would need to give room.
if yellow gybes, and green gybes, then green will be behind yellow, not below, or to leeward, and would follow yellow to the finish line. Green would therefore get bouy room and could gybe back onto starboard to cross the finish line.
Created: 18-May-10 05:57
Phil Scherer
Nationality: New Zealand
0
A more interesting situation would have green coming in on port. As soon as yellow hits the zone, green becomes the inside boat, and yelow would need to gybe while keeping clear of green and giving them buoy room.
Created: 18-May-10 06:00
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
1
I keep thinking about this interesting situation !!!
This forum is so good !!
Thanks to all of you !!
Cata
Created: 18-May-11 10:19
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
0
Remember that the mark room requirement is to give room, not to keep clear.
Room privilege includes the requirement to "maneuver... in a seamanlike way."
Plowing into the stern of the boat ahead is not seamanlike.
Created: Thu 18:01
Bill Handley
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
The requirement is for yellow to give blue mark room which indeed is room to manoeuvre in a seamanlike manner. By blocking blue at the mark yellow is denying that room and therefore breaking rule 18. If blue "plows into the stern of the boat ahead" when she could have avoided it she is breaking rule 14 but as a boat entitled to mark room will only be penalised if there is damage or injury - rule14(b). The fact that blue makes contact from astern does not in any way alter the fact that yellow is denying mark room and breaking rule 18.
Created: Thu 19:06
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