Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Scoring query for boats with different PY for different configurations

Paul kimmens
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
Hi,

At our club we have always had an unwritten understanding that if you sail a boat that has different configurations and asscoiated PY for each configuration (for example Laser Full rig and Laser Radial rig) then you get multiple series scores based on the number of configurations sailed in the series.

For example a Laser sailor sails in an 8 race series using a full rig for 3 races and a radial rig for 4 races. Our scoring would be that the sailor gets two series scores; one for the full rig (3 results plus 5 DNC) and the other for the radial rig (4 results plus 4 DNC)

I should add that our club series scoring is defined as races to count will be the 1st whole number above half the number of races completed in the series.

RRS 78.1 (compliance with class rules) possibly covers this situation but we are considering writing something into the 'scoring' section of our NoR to specifically cover this point.

I would welcome any views or feedback on how other clubs handle this.

Many thanks

Paul Kimmens
Sailing Secretary
South Cerney Sailing Club
Created: Tue 17:58

Comments

Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Fleet Measurer
Thumbs up x1
1
Thumbs down x1
Paul,

I had a similair issue in the fleet I ran where sometimes a boat (due to conditions or lack of crew) would want to compete with the non-spin fleet sometimes .. sometimes the spin fleet. In that case, it would depend on the flexibility of the RC and the stated intent of the competitor. In my case, the spin and non-spins had separate starts and class-flags and we would allow a boat to be scored across the series (which ran a few months) sometimes in the spin fleet .. sometimes in the non-spin fleet.

Certainly, due to conditions, a spin boat can choose not to fly their spinnaker .. and still be scored with the spin fleet if they flew the correct flag, checked-in with the RC and started properly with the spin fleet.

I'm not familiar with the Laser OD rules .. but since the Radial is smaller than the Full rig, maybe the Radial rig is within the class limits of the Full rig? If so, one could see the ability for all races to be scored under the Full .. but not under the Radial .. but also I think it's important that the intent of the RC and the competitor needs to be made clear, not only for them, but for the other competitors out on the course so they know who they are competing against.
Created: Tue 18:28
Lloyd Causey
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
Thumbs up x1
0
Thumbs down x1
We have had in the past requests to allow both symetrical and Asymetrical Spinnakers to be on PHRF certificates in the Gulf Yachting Assosciation.. Then the boats would be allowed to fly either spinnaker but not both in any race. I was not well received and never implemented.
Created: Tue 18:48
Tom Clay
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Thumbs up x1
0
Thumbs down x1
The problem, Paul, is that you are faced with two opposing problems:
1. You want to have as many qualifiers as possible in a series and you may well have a situation in which a sailor has sailed more than half the races in a series but does not qualify with either a full rig or a radial. All clubs would like to maximise the number of qualifiers to encourage racing.
2. But the Laser sailor is potentially obtaining an advantage by using a full rig in light airs but reducing the size of the rig and improving his handicap when it is windy.

There is no ideal solution to this. PY does allow the yardstick to be adapted for local conditions so you could use the full rig handicap for all races or adapt the yardstick in some other manner. I think it needs to be discussed within the racing fleet to try to reach a solution that all feel is reasonably equitable while accepting that handicaps always have some inequities.
Created: Tue 18:59
Paul kimmens
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
Thumbs up x1
0
Thumbs down x1
Hi Tom,

Thanks for your input.

Just for clarification we use 'regatta' type scoring in that you automatically qualify in a series once you complete one race. We use 'races to count' only to work out the series score. So someone who does 8 races where there are 9 races to count in a series will still qualify with a series score of 8 results plus 1 DNC.

We removed series qualification criteria a few years ago as it was impacting on participation especially at the end of series where members did not show up for races because they could not qualify in the series. We have found that participation has increased slightly as a result. Also the overall series results look so much better as we now are able to award 1st/2nd/3rd positions in all series whereas before we sometimes did not get enough qualifiiers to fill 1st three positions.

It is a difficult topic and trying to please everyone is never going to be easy especially when trying to encourage more members to participate in racing.

Good to have the dicussion from other clubs to consider

Many Thanks
Created: Tue 19:17
Ken Falcon
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
Thumbs up x1
0
Thumbs down x1
Hi Paul,
Although the Laser Standard, Radial & 4.7 share the same class association, they are, nonetheless, three different classes. As such, UKLA would not allow a comptetitor to change rig, ie class, during an event unless it were to count as two different sets of results, as you have done. Thus, unless your NoR allows a competitor to change rig/class during an event, the scoring should be as you have described. Ken Falcon (Chairman UKLA) (trust you are keeping well)
Created: Tue 20:36
Michael Roth
Nationality: United States of America
Thumbs up x1
0
Thumbs down x1
The Hawaii Laser fleet allows you to choose the sail you want for each race. We have fulls, radials and 4.7 all competing on the same couse in one class. We then divide them by Laser A and Laser B scoring.
Created: Tue 20:54
Paul kimmens
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
Thumbs up x1
0
Thumbs down x1
Hi Michael, that's interesting. Can you send me a link or provide some details as to how Laser A and Laser B scoring is calculated.
Created: Tue 21:59
Paul kimmens
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
Thumbs up x1
0
Thumbs down x1
Hi Ken,

Thanks for your prompt input, really useful. I am doing really well and enjoying being retired, spending lots of time on the water instructing, doing race management, and still sailing a Solo. How did I ever find time for work!
Created: Tue 22:02
Tom Clay
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Thumbs up x1
0
Thumbs down x1
Hi Paul

It is a good innovation to remove a minimum qualifying number of races but it still presents a problem. Do you give a boat that is using a different rig a score according to the Low Point system ie equivalent to the number of entrants in the series plus one? This would mean that a boat using two rigs actually worsens her position by one point per race because she is regarded as two separate entrants! There is also no benefit from racing more races (albeit with different rigs).

I sail at Spinnaker Lake, a small gravel pit, and i sympathise with those who are light but want to make their light airs sailing more interesting. I hope it is not a binary choice between two separate entries or one entry with different handicaps depending on owners choice.
Created: Tue 22:44
Paul kimmens
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
Thumbs up x1
0
Thumbs down x1
Hi Tom,

If a sailor uses two different class of boats during a series i.e. Laser Standard and Laser Radial (or Laser and Solo) we score them as seperate entrants in a series. We do this to prevent anyone from having multiple rigs/boats and then sailing the best one to suit the conditions on a particular day as we feel that is unfair to a sailor who only has one boat/rig. However, boats like a Solo where class rules allow for a smaller sail (plan B) are scored as one entrant in a series irrespective of which sail is used as the sailor is sailing the same class of boat throughout the series.

We also change the scoring in our NoR so that a DNC in a series race is scored as the number of the boats entered in the series plus 6, this is to try and give some encouragement to those sailors that regularly compete in a series and to try and avoid a 'hot shot' from completing a few races and still getting into the silverware.

It's a difficult one because we want to encourage more participation in racing but we also want it to be as fair as possible to all competitors.

We have tried a few initiatives this year to encourage race participation including free club boat hire, a nominated person every Saturday to provide basic coaching and assistance to new/novice helms and we have amended our SI's to allow on the water coaching during racing. Feedback this year has been really good this year and we have seen more new/novice helms racing so it appears to be working!
Created: Tue 23:10
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Fleet Measurer
Thumbs up x1
0
Thumbs down x1
Paul, sounds like your Club was like mine and there is a lot of tolerance for “creativity” to accommodate a lot of racers

I want to clarify my original reply. What I was suggesting was have each boat declare the largest rig that they will sail with ... and that is their handicap no matter what rig they fly (just like a spin boat not flying their spin in HA). If you do that, then any boat can fly up to thier largest declared rig and if handicaps are in play, always rated at their fastest rating even if flying the smaller rig.

Just like a PHRF getting rated for an oversized Genoa or spin and always carrying that rating hit if they fly that sail or not.
Created: Wed 00:33
Andrew Craig
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
Thumbs up x1
0
Thumbs down x1
Paul, this has been a long running debate at Queen Mary. Our aim for club level sailing is to get as many people sailing as often as possible with the maximum fun. So for our Laser series we allow competitors to switch between Radial and Full rig and our NOR says this. It is a single start, we dont time results, it is first across the line. Competitors sign on each day before racing declaring their rig. In practice the full rig Lasers very rarely switch down and for those with Radials if they want to drop to a 4.7 then they sail with the slow handicap who do one round less, this to prevent there being too much delay between races. The results are presented with the combined fleet and then Radials only. There are prizes for the combined fleet and the Radials only. This seems to work for us, we typically get 50 entrants in a series and 20-25 on the start line. See here for sample results.
and here for NOR

Created: Yesterday 10:27
[You must be signed in to add a comment]