Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing
Is this a bad thing?
P
Paul ZupanNationality: United States
Certifications:
- International Judge
- National Judge
3
So this forum has been active for about a year now and I'm still getting a very mixed reaction to it. There are obviously many who are indifferent. And some who are enthusiastic. But I also receive feedback that this is a bad thing. The criticism seems to be that it provides a platform for dissemination of bad information. It has been recommended that I shut it down.
I can understand the argument that a person doesn't want to participate because they are in a position where their personal opinion could be confused with their role in World Sailing or their MNA. And in fact think that's a very reasonalble conclusion. On the other hand, I believe there are officials who relish the trivial issues and resulting lengthy discussions which actually determine how many angels can dance on the head of pin. I'll admit I don't read their comments, but understand their motivations.
But my motivation in providing this platform is pretty simple. I believe that publishing ideas allows for review and criticism which educates us all. Unless we do that, we're working in isolation. And that applies to the new sailor who is just trying to figure out a complicated situation she saw on a beer can race, as well as to the most well respected judge, measurer or race officer. If there is any pattern to the discussions, it seems like they are individuals who have an idea and are willing to accept criticism. There are disagreements, but those have been handled in a respectful manner (mostly). But there generally seems to be thoughtful discussions about the very nature of the rules and how they are applied that I've seen referenced at an event as recently as yesterday (mark room between boats in different races). And I believe that is a confirmation of the value of this forum.
So, my question is, what do you believe is bad about this forum. And I ask in the most respectful manner. I really am interested in determining if this is worthwhile. If you don't want to respond in a public forum, please email your response to admin@racingrulesofsailing.org. Or if you know of someone who has an opinion who is not reading this forum, please forward this request to therm. I really am evaluating whether or not to continue this forum so would value your opinion.
I can understand the argument that a person doesn't want to participate because they are in a position where their personal opinion could be confused with their role in World Sailing or their MNA. And in fact think that's a very reasonalble conclusion. On the other hand, I believe there are officials who relish the trivial issues and resulting lengthy discussions which actually determine how many angels can dance on the head of pin. I'll admit I don't read their comments, but understand their motivations.
But my motivation in providing this platform is pretty simple. I believe that publishing ideas allows for review and criticism which educates us all. Unless we do that, we're working in isolation. And that applies to the new sailor who is just trying to figure out a complicated situation she saw on a beer can race, as well as to the most well respected judge, measurer or race officer. If there is any pattern to the discussions, it seems like they are individuals who have an idea and are willing to accept criticism. There are disagreements, but those have been handled in a respectful manner (mostly). But there generally seems to be thoughtful discussions about the very nature of the rules and how they are applied that I've seen referenced at an event as recently as yesterday (mark room between boats in different races). And I believe that is a confirmation of the value of this forum.
So, my question is, what do you believe is bad about this forum. And I ask in the most respectful manner. I really am interested in determining if this is worthwhile. If you don't want to respond in a public forum, please email your response to admin@racingrulesofsailing.org. Or if you know of someone who has an opinion who is not reading this forum, please forward this request to therm. I really am evaluating whether or not to continue this forum so would value your opinion.
Comments
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I've started 2 threads on this board and IMO both resulted in a respectful, thoughtful and in the end fruitful discussion of the issue .. in that it resulted in either a conclusion with meaningful references to the rules, cases or appeals, or resulted with a more refined and specific question that might have illuminated a hole in the rules/cases/appeals that needed to be resolved.
Likewise, I've seen that on the other threads as well.
I guess I would ask, in the opinion of those who recommend you shutting it down, what "bad information" has been "disseminated"?
Without specific instances of the "harm" that is being alledged, it's hard to weigh the cons of having it.
Being a technical guy, I know that the internet is riddled with lots of bad information and you must take everything that you read with a grain of salt, but this resource truly appears reputable and as long as there is reference to actual rules and not maccho opinions where someone lost, I think you should continue this great find!!!!!
I would ask is this a good thing, and I would say yes. I don't comment often but I do read many of the posts and follow the discussions. I enjoy reading the question posted, thinking through my answer, and then seeing where the discussion goes. I find it helps me to revisit a well worn concept or think about something new. The posts help me keep active in my rules knowledge and critical thinking between regattas.
We need more unofficial leaning opportunities, and right now we cede that niche to a number of commercial publishers. While they often provide expert commentary officially their status is no different from you and I. Commercial rules commentary online or in book form as far as I know are not approved by the Rules, Appeals or Q&A Committees. I like and use the books and web sites I buy about the rules as an addition to the official publications and they too help me learn.
There are some online posts that are basic or go off on a tangent, but this is an unofficial discussion and part of learning. I've worked with many competitors who don't know the rules well yet, and it can even be helpful to hear people's misconceptions.
I think there is a place for all three methods of communication. The official publications are definitive, dry, and slow in coming. The commercials publications have made my learning curve faster by often going into in depth commentary, and the online sites allow for discussions that don't happen anywhere else.
The Case Book and Q&As definitive. I like Dave Perry's books, Dave Dellenbaug's newsletters, and the UK Sailmakers Rules Quiz for their discussions and perspective. I also find it helpful to read online rules discussions like this web site and Jos Spijkeman's Look To Windward. When learning about the rules I think they are all useful, and wish we had more to study.
If we only had one approved official resource, I think we’d learn less and not be as well informed.
Please keep up the good work.
I've found the discussions interesting, educational, and helpful.
There is not such a thing as a stupid question.
It's always people who have afraid to be challenged who are the first to criticize...
Like everything on the web there's accurate info and crackpot commentary...
Those who see the value don't tend to speak up, however, it only takes one vocal dissenter to skew a disussion away from reality and into a ditch.
Don't drive into the ditch.
I believe that seeing and reading these posts benefits new judges (a club judge like me) and its great to have the more experineced judges share their experinece and and comments on this forum.
Hearing, then, eating!!
Whatever you do, so far as you do something, it's either not enough or too much, you should have done it in some other way, or not done it.
No worries. Discussing makes us better, open minded, accepting other's feelings.
It's life,we don't always agree, we sometimes disagree, why the hell is he saying that, did he ever look to the rules, well I never red the rules that way, may be I should...
So, Paul, keep going.
Looking forward to meeting you, sometimes, either here in Europe, or abroad.
I did not discover this site until a few months ago - and like the eariler commnet- it was by accident.
I mihgt have only commented once or twice, but I read each string as I receive notification. Most of the question do pose a problem that is not commnon and takes some thought.
Should site remain active - I would vote yes.
Thanks for asking
To understand what is important to competitors is important to see why conflicts arrice and how to adjust rules training to focus on what matters.
" .. So, my question is, what do you believe is bad about this forum? .."
... I'll offer the following.
I haven't seen anything "bad" about the forum. The only thing I might comment on, which I could possibly see would ruffle some feathers has been the Board's general reaction to the Q&A's. Most seem to have been met with at least some decent ... and I could understand how someone who is less familiar with the spirit of the Forum ... might see that as undermining their authority and causing confusion.
Now, let me be clear, I don't agree with that take, as our discussions have been in the spirit of exploration of the ideas, but I can see how someone who was less familiar with the tenor here .. or lent the Forum some authority which it doesn't have ... would see it differently.
That said, if I was part of the body which generated the Q&A, I would welcome the exploration and fine-tuning that might possibly happen with the debate, as it would be useful in vetting the wording and approach if the issue makes it up the chain into the rules or cases.
Nay; 0
I'm flattered by the praise and thank you to all that have responded.
So far the two main criticisms which have appeared more than once in emails or comments:
1. The name of the forum could imply it is an official World Sailing site.
2. There should be one final answer by an authorized official so that those asking a questiion or trying to understand a rule are not confused.
Again, thanks for responding. And because of the number of responses, I realize that this has moved from my preoccupation to this community's forum. I'll continue to monitor for compliance with the guidelines (with some help of others), but it really has moved on to being a community for you.
It is very usefull to hear other views and interesting discussions on the RRS
I suggest to add a sub-title on the blog name: NOT OFFICIAL
I disagree that there should be one final answer to the questions posed. That is what Appeals Committees and the Rapid Response Teams are for. A lot of the items that come up are good basic, understanding the rules questions that the further up the food chain understand and know where to find the answer. This forum reminds me of the old (yeah I am old) Compuserve forum that we had in ancient history of dial up to discuss the rules and what is meant and/or intended. This forum allows us all to discuss issues at all levels, and as Sue pointed out, any discussion that educates or gets people thinking is a win for us all.
Thank you for providing this platform.
I can well imagine the chagrin that must have been felt at WS when first this website appeared and then again as it became a fixture and then so popular. Perhaps it should have been a WS inititive, but I'm inclined to think, indeed I'm certain that its greatest virtue is that it isn't an official site.
Besides this Forum, the regatta protest managment tool is very good and I hope more and more regattas will start using it.
Could you give the link to the protest tool management?
Tks.
Could you give me the link to the protest management tool?
Tks.
i agree with above sentiments, no "official final conclusion" here, as that should help to maintain and support the forum unofficial status.
Ang
Loic,
Go to the Toolbox on the main menu above. Then select My Events.
Here’s a the help link.
http://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/help/best_practices
The 'Toolbox' link does not work for me.
Thanks.